The Grave of a Field Marshall

[Blackpowder44]

Whilst he did a bang up job in the desert, he did sit on his hands for quite a while in Caen.

If thats what you think then you have no knowledge of the Normandy battles. John.

[Scout]

If thats what you think then you have no knowledge of the Normandy battles. John.

Always nice to see someone posting a well thought out and intelligent counter argument to ones post






EDIT: The thing is - between adults one does not go for the insult right away, but instead one posts a counter argument, if one does not agree.

If you are in doubt as to the procedure, look at Paul E's posts in this thread. 1. Disagreement 2. Counter argument. See, not so difficult.

I know, I know, it is tempting for a certain kind of person who might not get out much, to go for the insult especially on the internet, but lets try with arguments instead, shall we - there is a good sport.

Did you go sifting through old posts for someone to disagree with

[herrzark]

great photos.thank you

[sitges1990]

Fantastic photos of a true hero's resting place. I'm embarrassed to say I didn't know where he was buried or when he died. Monty always left a warm spot in my heart, he was a warrior not a politician. True lord's of war are not politicians. Ike was more of a politician than a warrior. Excellent generals from all sides made bad decisions in that war, before it, and since. Also, alot of the Intel these WWII guys were working with was wrong quite frequently. I'm sure it made them disregard Intel at times.

Jay

[Adrian]

I must admit to some embarrassment too. I'm from Hampshire and had no knowledge of Monty's resting place let alone it being in my home county. I'm going there again in a week or two and will definitely pay a visit. Thank you for posting the photos and thank you for bringing the thread back to the top.

Also, please keep the thread on track. I have no desire to read through the trading of petty remarks that are of no value to the topic or the forum.

[Paul D]

Fantastic photos of a true hero's resting place. I'm embarrassed to say I didn't know where he was buried or when he died. Monty always left a warm spot in my heart, he was a warrior not a politician. True lord's of war are not politicians. Ike was more of a politician than a warrior. Excellent generals from all sides made bad decisions in that war, before it, and since. Also, alot of the Intel these WWII guys were working with was wrong quite frequently. I'm sure it made them disregard Intel at times.

Jay

Great post Jay as you say mistakes were made by all commanders which unfortunately the result of that in war is the loss of lives. Monty was a warrior who had seen real combat as had his nemises George Patton who had as many faults as Monty but again no one could doubt he was a fighting man.

That level of command of troops is beyond the scope of most of us but an interesting story about Monty is that shortly before his death he said " Shortly i will have to go before God and explain why i killed all those men at El Alamein " , he obviously wasn't the cold fish he has been portrayed as post war and felt the responsibilty of his descisions throughout his life , responsibilty that the majority of us would not want !!

regards

Paul

[sitges1990]

I had not heard that quote from Monty. We were in the same line of work Paul, so you know, there is no room for being sentimental when you kill a man, let alone be directly responsible for the deaths of thousands. I'm sure he, as well as many others, struggled in their own mind, how to justify the killing. Well, God bless Monty, I hope he is kicking back in the promised land!

Jay

[Paul D]

I had not heard that quote from Monty. We were in the same line of work Paul, so you know, there is no room for being sentimental when you kill a man, let alone be directly responsible for the deaths of thousands. I'm sure he, as well as many others, struggled in their own mind, how to justify the killing. Well, God bless Monty, I hope he is kicking back in the promised land!

Jay

Amen to that Jay !!

[big ned]

Great post Jay as you say mistakes were made by all commanders which unfortunately the result of that in war is the loss of lives. Monty was a warrior who had seen real combat as had his nemises George Patton who had as many faults as Monty but again no one could doubt he was a fighting man.

That level of command of troops is beyond the scope of most of us but an interesting story about Monty is that shortly before his death he said " Shortly i will have to go before God and explain why i killed all those men at El Alamein " , he obviously wasn't the cold fish he has been portrayed as post war and felt the responsibilty of his descisions throughout his life , responsibilty that the majority of us would not want !!

regards

Paul

Well said Jay and Paul,

Realistic points made without falling into the common trap of relying on heresay that has had the opportunity to ferment over many decades of poor reporting and lazy revisionism.

Monty has, i feel been wrongly condemmed as a self agrandising glory seeker at the expense of his own troops. This is unfair, as he showed great concern for their welfare whilst still being a leader who expected only the best. Let us not forget that he was truly admired by the common enlisted men who served under him, unlike many of Patton's troops. Monty never resorted to calling a man a coward and personally whipping him to the ground did he?

Shortly before his death he confided that when he stood before God he knew he would have to answer to him for the losses of his men at El Alamein, and was prepared. A complex and extremely private man, i feel that this was often regarded later as arrogance and a lack of will to take any advice from others.

As already said, Leaders in war have to take decisions that once begun can go many different ways, but they know that whichever way it goes, there will always be criticism for one reason or another.

Suffice to say that Montgomery was fallible as well as brilliant. But he was always human enough to stand up and admit to mistakes he made personally, and that is for me, the true measure of the man.

This quote from his autobiography regarding the failure of 'Market Garden' is concise and accurate i feel, and shows perfectly the honesty of the man:
"There were many reasons why we did not gain complete success at Arnhem. The following in my view were the main ones. First. The operation was not regarded at Supreme Headquarters as the spearhead of a major Allied movement on the northern flank designed to isolate, and finally to occupy, the Ruhr - the one objective in the West which the Germans could not afford to lose. There is no doubt in my mind that Eisenhower always wanted to give priority to the northern thrust and to scale down the southern one. He ordered this to be done, and he thought that it was being done. It was not being done. Second. The airborne forces at Arnhem were dropped too far away from the vital objective - the bridge. It was some hours before they reached it. I take the blame for this mistake. I should have ordered Second Army and 1st Airborne Corps to arrange that at least one complete Parachute Brigade was dropped quite close to the bridge, so that it could have been captured in a matter of minutes and its defence soundly organised with time to spare. I did not do so. Third. The weather. This turned against us after the first day and we could not carry out much of the later airborne programme. But weather is always an uncertain factor, in war and in peace. This uncertainty we all accepted. It could only have been offset, and the operation made a certainty, by allotting additional resources to the project, so that it became an Allied and not merely a British project. Fourth. The 2nd S.S. Panzer Corps was refitting in the Arnhem area, having limped up there after its mauling in Normandy. We knew it was there. But we were wrong in supposing that it could not fight effectively; its battle state was far beyond our expectation. It was quickly brought into action against the 1st Airborne Division."

Regards Ned.

[Paul D]

Well said Jay and Paul,

Realistic points made without falling into the common trap of relying on heresay that has had the opportunity to ferment over many decades of poor reporting and lazy revisionism.

Monty has, i feel been wrongly condemmed as a self agrandising glory seeker at the expense of his own troops. This is unfair, as he showed great concern for their welfare whilst still being a leader who expected only the best. Let us not forget that he was truly admired by the common enlisted men who served under him, unlike many of Patton's troops. Monty never resorted to calling a man a coward and personally whipping him to the ground did he?

Shortly before his death he confided that when he stood before God he knew he would have to answer to him for the losses of his men at El Alamein, and was prepared. A complex and extremely private man, i feel that this was often regarded later as arrogance and a lack of will to take any advice from others.

As already said, Leaders in war have to take decisions that once begun can go many different ways, but they know that whichever way it goes, there will always be criticism for one reason or another.

Suffice to say that Montgomery was fallible as well as brilliant. But he was always human enough to stand up and admit to mistakes he made personally, and that is for me, the true measure of the man.

This quote from his autobiography regarding the failure of 'Market Garden' is concise and accurate i feel, and shows perfectly the honesty of the man:
"There were many reasons why we did not gain complete success at Arnhem. The following in my view were the main ones. First. The operation was not regarded at Supreme Headquarters as the spearhead of a major Allied movement on the northern flank designed to isolate, and finally to occupy, the Ruhr - the one objective in the West which the Germans could not afford to lose. There is no doubt in my mind that Eisenhower always wanted to give priority to the northern thrust and to scale down the southern one. He ordered this to be done, and he thought that it was being done. It was not being done. Second. The airborne forces at Arnhem were dropped too far away from the vital objective - the bridge. It was some hours before they reached it. I take the blame for this mistake. I should have ordered Second Army and 1st Airborne Corps to arrange that at least one complete Parachute Brigade was dropped quite close to the bridge, so that it could have been captured in a matter of minutes and its defence soundly organised with time to spare. I did not do so. Third. The weather. This turned against us after the first day and we could not carry out much of the later airborne programme. But weather is always an uncertain factor, in war and in peace. This uncertainty we all accepted. It could only have been offset, and the operation made a certainty, by allotting additional resources to the project, so that it became an Allied and not merely a British project. Fourth. The 2nd S.S. Panzer Corps was refitting in the Arnhem area, having limped up there after its mauling in Normandy. We knew it was there. But we were wrong in supposing that it could not fight effectively; its battle state was far beyond our expectation. It was quickly brought into action against the 1st Airborne Division."

Regards Ned.

Another good post Ned , right on the money as far as i'm concerned about Monty , a great point about the men who fought under and for him , apart from a few Seniors Generals who had their own axe to grind very few had a bad thing to say and he was revered by all who fought with him despite what the revisionists try to allude to. Britain needed someone like Monty and he stepped up and did the job.

regards

Paul