Portepee or Trodell? WW2 or WW1?

[RON]

Ade, Billy, thanks for your updates.
Unfortunately, I don't have the first one with me yet--still on route--so I can't post more pictures.
Just to clarify one thing Billy, are you saying that apart from the Fire Brigade carmine knot the other 2 are identical in being both NCO Heer ww2? Aren;t they different in design (3 vs. 2 metallic rows of thread + different )?
Another pending question: Does the first NCO knot--provided it is Heer--match the sword I posted above?

[Billy G]

Ron,

I'm sorry if I made this topipc any more complicated that it had to be, I'll try to break it down better. Heer bayo/sword knots came in at least 2 forms, black leather strap with 2 rows of thread & black leather strap with 3 rows of thread. Why this is I can't say but if you see a black leather strap with 2 rows, it's definitely Heer. If you see a black leather strap with 3 rows then it has several possibilties. Generally speaking:

- If a knot with black leather 3 row strap has a silver bullion bulb with a grey dot, it's for a Heer sword/bayo. These are the most common, hands down. It would also be appropriate for the sword you posted earlier IMHO.

- If a knot with black leather 3 row strap has a silver bullion bulb with a carmine dot, it's for Feuerwehr, officer grade sword/bayo.

- If a knot with black leather 3 row strap with silver bullion bulb has a combination of red, silver & black in the dot, it's for a Polizei officer grade sword/bayo. This type is usually seen with a red thread intertwined in the center of the 3 metallic threads.

- If a black leather 3 row strap with silver bullion bulb has a black dot, then there's a question. It's either an early Bahnschutz sword knot or early SS sword knot, most likely the former.

The carmine/silver knot posted is the usually seen EM type knot. This type & the officer's grade knot discussed above were discontinued at some point subsequent to the consolidation of the Polizei departments thoughout Germany (roughly 1938?) in favor of the already in use Polizei knots. The officer's grade Polizei knot is described above. The NCO Polizei knot has a green/silver bulb with green dot & black leather strap with 3 rows of metallic thread. This is why Feuerwehr bayonets can often be seen with a variety of all the above type knots in period ties. From what I've read on the subject, it's quite possible as the war years dragged on & personnel changes were frequent, enforcement of simple uniform items like portepee types probably dropped off.

Hope this helps.

[RON]

Hello Billy, this is pretty helpful thanks alot!
Just to make sure I'm properly grasping this:
> Are the Heer sword/bayo knots you detailed above EM & NCO? Were the Heer Officer's any different?
> Is the sword I posted EM or NCO or both? Was is intended for Heer Mounted Troops as some sellers describe it? (I've got a separate post for these swords on this Forum should you want to have a look at it and help me there as well)
> I'm still not sure about that green 2-row knot I posted (pls. see picture earlier in this thread) since its strap is actually made of fabric (not leather). Is it Heer EM/NCO as well?
> Is there some easy chart on German knots on the Net to use as reference?
Thanks again.

[Billy G]

Ron,

Let me preface this by saying that I'm not a sword guy so any info I have on swords may be flawed. I guess the only reason I know anything about them may be due to the similar accouterments shared between swords & dress bayonets, of which I am a fan. From what I can see, the sword you posted looks to be an NCO model. I don't know why someone would think that particular plain model would be specific to a Gebirgsjager unit unless there was some inscription or other element I'm not seeing.

To answer your initial question about Heer NCO/EM knots, I don't believe EM were allowed to wear a knot. Someone please correct me if I'm mistaken but that seems to be what I remember. The EM knot I mentioned earlier was the carmine/silver knot for Feuerwehr.

The knot you posted looks to me to have a black, albeit distressed, strap. That knot does not have 2 rows but rather 3, hence the question of whether it's Heer, Feuerwehr, Polizei or early SS/Bahnschutz. If the knot had 2 rows, it would be Heer with no question IMHO.

The green I'm seeing looks to be the underside of the strap. I'm not sure how the fabric vs. leather plays into this except to say I have a dozen or so Polizei knots. Half have leather straps & half have fabric & there's no difference to specificity for the knot itself. I read somewhere that the Polizei leather straps were earlier production & fabric later production but I have nothing to base it on other than something in my foggy memory. I actually prefer the fabric straps as they don't flake or split quite as easily & are easier to get into a proper portepee tie on an item. The leather straps can sometimes be quite troublesome.

I'm unaware of a net chart for you to use for reference to knots. My suggestion would be to pick up a copy of George Wheeler's "Seitengewehr" on Eban or Amazon. There are some decent pics & a color chart in there although I don't know if it's quite complete. That's probably the best chart I can remember for quick reference.