Seeking a bit of help from fellow American collectors

[Erno]

I would agree that if an author is known to salt his books with fakes, then do not spend the money. I do not know how long you have been collecting but I doubt it is anywhere near the time I have spent in this hobby. Without serious research and reference books, our hobby and this forum would be a vast wilderness of unknowns. I have many books in my library by authors other than Jack Angolia. The majority of them are by authors, like Wim saris, who have done serious research from period reference material and photographs. The subject of collectors being too cheap to invest in a reliable library is not a new phenomenon. It has has just become more pronounced in the past 20 years. There is still much to learn in this hobby and who is going to do the research after the present generation of researchers and advanced collectors is dead and gone? Authoring a reference book is not a labor for profit. A good friend of mine spent years putting together a fine reference material and has yet to receive any funds from the publisher. There are no way to get through serious collecting on the cheap. Those who try will always be on a lower tier of knowledge and collecting. Although on the forum we moderators continually see individuals who feel their are entitled to a free education, that is not the way the world really works.

I know that there are many good reference books on various subjects, but there are only three major English-language references on the subject of belt buckles. They are the Angolia first and second editions and 'German Belt Buckles 1845-1945' by Peter Nash. All three are full of errors, though the newest of those was published in (I think) 2003, so it is naturally somewhat dated. I don't collect anything else, so I don't have any reason to own any other reference books. Also, I don't think you were referring to me specifically, but I don't expect or ask for a free education from the forum. I pay for club membership and I also make every attempt to assist other members whenever possible.

If someone would to publish a truly accurate, well-researched belt buckle book which contains facts and not opinions, I would certainly send a donation to assist with research. I don't have the time, experience or resources to write or publish such a book. As an American collector, I have no access to German archives or other source material which is necessary to produce a purely factual reference.

[Wilhelm Saris]

Well Erno, a German friend of mine is doing proper research for a new buckle-book for years and years.
I handed over some material and I am sure one day his book will be released. Much facts, as he has
knowledge about the subject.

By the way: every collector can have access to German archives. They have quite a lot of information,
but believe me the real facts about buckles you only can get from former companies. Most are gone,
as are most of the older employees that can tell you about the subject and procedures. I once intended
to do a "real" buckle book in the 1970's - now exactly 40 years ago - and visited Lüdenscheid companies.
Believe me: they had hardly any proper material by documents. In those days I did own more copies from
catalogues and leaflets than the city archives. They owned just a few. No more!

Hopefully my friend gets his job done and can release his book. But do you really think his book is the final
and ultimate buckle-book? And do you really think all of his writings will be accepted? I don't think so, as
many think they have buckle-knowledge! But do they?

[BOB COLEMAN]

I know that there are many good reference books on various subjects, but there are only three major English-language references on the subject of belt buckles. They are the Angolia first and second editions and 'German Belt Buckles 1845-1945' by Peter Nash. All three are full of errors, though the newest of those was published in (I think) 2003, so it is naturally somewhat dated. I don't collect anything else, so I don't have any reason to own any other reference books. Also, I don't think you were referring to me specifically, but I don't expect or ask for a free education from the forum. I pay for club membership and I also make every attempt to assist other members whenever possible.


If someone would to publish a truly accurate, well-researched belt buckle book which contains facts and not opinions, I would certainly send a donation to assist with research. I don't have the time, experience or resources to write or publish such a book. As an American collector, I have no access to German archives or other source material which is necessary to produce a purely factual reference.

Erno-
You are correct that my comments weregeneral and not aimed at you or anyone else. Wim has made a great point in his last post about the final acceptance of his friend's proposed buckle book. Without the work of authors such as Wim, we collectors would still be living by gun show lore and not facts. this is why it is so important to support authors by buying thir works. As your interest appears to be limited to buckles, the investment in reference material is slight and as you say limited in accuracy. I think your initial post has opened up an area of discussion long overlooked in the collector community. There is no price that can be placed on an education being able to determine what is legitimate and what is not.

[Erno]

Well Erno, a German friend of mine is doing proper research for a new buckle-book for years and years.
I handed over some material and I am sure one day his book will be released. Much facts, as he has
knowledge about the subject.

By the way: every collector can have access to German archives. They have quite a lot of information,
but believe me the real facts about buckles you only can get from former companies. Most are gone,
as are most of the older employees that can tell you about the subject and procedures. I once intended
to do a "real" buckle book in the 1970's - now exactly 40 years ago - and visited Lüdenscheid companies.
Believe me: they had hardly any proper material by documents. In those days I did own more copies from
catalogues and leaflets than the city archives. They owned just a few. No more!

Hopefully my friend gets his job done and can release his book. But do you really think his book is the final
and ultimate buckle-book? And do you really think all of his writings will be accepted? I don't think so, as
many think they have buckle-knowledge! But do they?

Well, please let him know that I will gladly assist him in any way possible in his endeavor. If he is requesting donations, then I will help with that, or he can use anything from my meager collection that may prove to be useful.

Regarding the archives, I meant the private archives owned by whatever companies still remain, or the people who ran them. It is the same here in America; it is not easy to learn about private companies by visiting archives. Very little such information is held there. Unfortunately, most of the important documents are probably long gone. Some may exist, but who knows where?

Of course it will not be the final word, and rightly so. Nothing should ever be taken as gospel unless it is printed in black and white in a period publication or photograph. Even then, regulations were not always followed, but at least original documents tell us how things were supposed to be. There will always be controversies as long as there is doubt. I don't claim to have any buckle knowledge beyond the basics.

[Erno]

I think your initial post has opened up an area of discussion long overlooked in the collector community. There is no price that can be placed on an education being able to determine what is legitimate and what is not.

That is true, but the buckle books available now won't give any collector that ability. Hopefully the book spoken of by Wilhelm will change that. At the same time, I hope it isn't too overly detailed in that respect, because the last thing we need is a handbook for fakers. As it is, the fake buckles are mostly quite easy to spot. What would be more valuable is a book that gives the collector the history behind them, rather than the 'nuts and bolts,' which can only really be learned from studying real and fake examples.

I hope this new book provides information about the various firms, the Reichszeugmeisterei and the regulations. All of that sort of information is replaced with lore and supposition in the currently available works.

[big ned]

Some very good points made chaps, I couldn't do without my reference books and agree with those here who say that they're an essential part of the hobby, giving information that is often hard to find on many forums, especially due to having to go wading through a lot of chaff before getting to the wheat, as they say.

Here's a few of mine that are on my desk at any one time, they each cost as much as a genuine award, badge or medal at least, but when you avoid buying just a SINGLE fake thanks to the information therein, then it's paid for itself, all the rest is gravy. The forums are an excellent learning tool, but in my opinion that needs to be backed up by reference books and (wherever possible) hands on experience, knowing the feel, weight and yes, even the noise when tapped with something metallic, is priceless. It all helps get the experience required to be sure in yourself, for when the time comes that you can't easily ask some guys on a forum and have to rely on knowledge gleaned from other sources.


Money spent on reference books has always proved to me to be money best spent, and I sincerely hope that the day never comes when the authors of these priceless tomes feel that it is no longer worth the effort to continue writing and publishing them.

Regards, Ned.

[No1canuck]

Ned
Gotta agree with the reference books being important. Not that the forums are not or any other info. I have found the same that the reference books are money well spent.
Steve

I always have to remind myself that it is not Shultz making a comment when you post!!!

[slados28]

I just wish they were all published by Bender, and were all the same height. The OCD side of my collector brain would be pleased by the order.

I like this --- I think mine would be too

That aside, I love books as a physical medium. Also, as others have mentioned, especially with regards to reference books on topics one is passionate about, I tend to see the purchasing of a book as showing my support towards the efforts of the author and hope it acts as encouragement for more well-researched goodies I like information of all kinds, shapes and sizes -- especially the thoroughly researched type

[big ned]

I always have to remind myself that it is not Shultz making a comment when you post!!!

I'm actually Daniel Craig's stunt double for the sex scenes and ones involving thrashing the Aston around Monte Carlo or Vienna, but other than that you're not far off......

[Jerry B]

I'm actually Daniel Craig's stunt double for the sex scenes and ones involving thrashing the Aston around Monte Carlo or Vienna, but other than that you're not far off......

Do you also double as his arse Ned?