I'll throw in more confusion. There are post war examples of Italian cartouches on the stocks representing new ownership for the export market. Many of these are on the 41 rifles but none converted to 8mm. It's like these things were scattered across the known universe at some point.
If I'm tracking correctly, those are actually the refurb stamps, applied at the facilities that reconditioned the rifles and replaced the parts that needed it. The good thing is that many of those stamps were clearly applied, so the date is usually pretty clear. I've seen as early as 1947 and as late as 1957.
Yes, although my source didn't go into any detail about the refurb process. More of a "new owner" notation.
I thought my stamp was a post war date. That cellphone pic I posted is NOT the Best!!!. Ill see if my son can take one with his camera
I'll take a better look at it in good light with a micro lens to see if I can make out a date.
Semper Fi
Phil
The stamp on the barrel shank (FAT 41) is from when it was originally produced by Terni in 1941. It looks like the stock stamp above the serial number is from Terni too, and would have been put there when the rifle was completed. Many rifles received replacement parts as needed, but not necessarily made by the same factory that made the rifle. Numerous sub-contractors produced parts and components, so it's certainly possible to see a bolt part from FNA Brescia on a Terni rifle, for example.by AZPhil
Agreed.. It doesn't line up with any post war stamp example I've seen either.
Hi, I think I’m a bit late on this topic, anyway I hope to add something of interest. The 91/38 ”cavalry” is for sure the most iconic small arm carried by our soldiers during WWII, more than the famous, but less common, MAB smg. Issued to the elite troops, such as Bersaglieri and paratroopers, was also widely used (and photographed) during the civil war 43/45 both by partisan and fascist forces.
Some pics of mine: this one is a Gardone V.T. production, made in 1941 and refurbished in Terni in 1944.
On the barrel chamber you see the s/n, the Gardone’s logo and the date: (1) 941 and XIX, that indicates the 19th year of Fascist Era (counting from 28/10/1922 to 25/07/1943; almost every weapon made during this timeframe will bear these Roman numbers).
The stock (salvaged and force matched) bears a non common wartime refurbishment date, since the vast majority have been reworked postwar, mainly in the late 40’s. The cartouche FAET means “Fabbrica Armi Esercito Terni” (Army weapons factory Terni); a cartouche bearing FAT could also be find in these reworked rifles. As already pointed out by PRE, during refurb process every functional part was used, so the mix of different makers stamped parts is the norm. Sometimes one can find parts dating even WWI. Another characteristic of the Terni’s refurb job is the ugly, black bluing on metal parts.
Below a group of Folgore paratroopers carrying 91/38’s and one MAB 38; El Alamein, 1942.
Last edited by ziomanno; 12-14-2019 at 04:44 PM.
Very nice moschetto, ziomanno! That's actually the first wartime refurbishment stamp I've seen that is oval. I'm accustomed to seeing oval stamps only on post-war refurbished weapons.
Pat
This is true Pat; the Terni arsenal was heavily bombed in August ‘43, then the Germans moved to the North most of the tools and machinery, so the production there was halted or very limited. Terni was under Allied control since June ‘44, thus I guess the factory resumed again activities quite late in this year, making the first use of oval FAET or FAT cartouche.
Ziomanno,
That's exactly my understanding of the situation. The late war period is very interesting in terms of small arms production in Italy, whether in the RSI or the liberated regions. I read two US Army documents from the post-war period that addressed Italian small arms production, and the nature of the Italian war economy. They were fascinating and showed how the Italian business owners actually benefitted indirectly from the Allied bombing at places like Terni.
The result was that the Germans, who had identified Italian producers as necessary for the German war effort in Italy, organized the collection and movement of all useful parts, components and machinery from intact and damaged factories to the north. They entirely funded their movement and resumed production mostly out of the range of Allied bombing and in the heart of the RSI and German-controlled areas. Some late war Carcanos show evidence of the use of parts from different origins. I have a late war Model 1941 that has a Terni made barrel, but was assembled and numbered at Arma Guerra Cremona. The latter factory ('factories' is probably more accurate) continued production through 1944 and likely into 1945.
The real question is 'who used the late war Carcanos?' The obvious choice would be Italian soldiers loyal to the RSI, but some late war Carcanos show hints of German use, and period photos definitely show this, although some of the rifles and carbines used by the Wehrmacht could have been captured or surrendered after the armistice of September 1943. It's likely that both the RSI and the Germans utilized them. In the USA, late war examples are usually in excellent condition and appear to have been used very little, or not at all.
If there's enough interest here, I can start a separate thread on my late war Carcanos.
Best,
Pat
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