Found a M1 Carbine, turns out to be a M2...

[paco]

Hi folks.
Recently i was on a hurry and i had to pick up some guns from a collector that quit collecting.
So, i registered the rifles en MG's and went back home.
One of the things was a M1 Carbine with M1 markings. However, it had a funswitch on the left upper side.
So, what is the story on those M1 converted carbines, who did it, when, how long, how many, what brands...
many questions.
I'll post a picture asap.

paco

[command450]

Does it had all the M2 parts for sure?


I dont know if the arsenal ever converted M1's to M2's...maybe. Its a complicated switch over compared to others. theres a LOT of Different parts for the M2 carbine. IIRC, they would have all been marked M2. I would imagine they would have all been inland mfr. I could check my books to be sure though.....

So in belgium you can own FA small arms?

[Scout]

Over 200.000 M2 carbines were produced by GM ID and Winchester

Here som info:

Inland Division of General Motors

-Main Manufacture & Identification Codes: "I" "IN"
-Main Plant Location: Dayton, Ohio.
-Average Cost to Government per completed rifle, $37.75.
-Approximately 2,632,097 total Carbines were made by Inland: About 43% of all M1 Carbines made.

---M1 Carbines: 2,428,486 | 86.91%
---M2 Carbines: 202,800 | 7.73% (Only Inland and Winchester Manufactured these)
---T2 Carbines, Unknown. (Only Inland and Winchester Manufactured these)
---T3 Carbines, 811 | .03% (Only Inland and Winchester Manufactured these)
---M1A1 Carbines, 140,000 | 5.33% More info on M1A1 here (Only Inland made these)

-Serial number blocks assigned by the government:

---- Serial number 1 - 5, October, 1941 - April, 1942 (Tool room prototypes)
---- Serial number 5 - 100, April, 1942 - May, 1942

--1st block, Serial number, 11 - 999,999 | May, 1942 - December, 1943
--2nd block, Serial number, 2,912,520 - 3,212,519 | September, 1943 - Late January, 1944 (Includes Saginaw (S.G.) receivers)
--3rd block, Serial number, 4,879,526 - 5,549,821 | January, 1944 - August, 1944 (Includes Saginaw (S.G.) Receivers)
----Serial number, 5,549,822 - 5,550,376 | August, 1944 (Inland ran into Winchester serial number block)
----Serial number, 5,557,000 - 5,557,990 | August, 1944 (Inland ran into Winchester serial number block)
--4th block, Serial number, 6,219,689 - 6,449,883 | August, 1944 - November, 1944
--5th block, Serial number, 6,629,884 - 7,234,883 | November, 1944 - January, 1945 (Some M2 Production, Fully automatic Carbines) M2 / T3 Specific forum can be found here
--6th block, Serial number, 7,369,661 - 8,069,660 | January, 1945 - August, 1945 (M2 Production, Fully automatic Carbines)
----Serial number, 0001 - 0800 | Late 1944 - 1945 (T3 Production, sniper model Carbines) M2 / T3 Specific forum can be found here
----Serial number, 00001 - 00900 | Late 1944 - 1945 (T3 Production, sniper model Carbines)


-Primary stock & hand guard supplier: S.E. Overton and Hillerich & Bradsby

-Barrel suppliers: Inland, Brown-Lipe-Chapin for Inland.

-Parts made directly by Inland:
Bolts, Receivers, Barrels, Magazine Releases, Hammers, Gas Nuts, Gas Cylinders, Firing Pins and Trigger Housings.

Side Notes:

- Inland was the forerunner for all to follow. Other contractors were gearing up to manufacture the Carbine and Inland provided most of the tooling and production procedures that would enable the others to begin full production.

- Any Inland Receiver with a "X" after the serial number means that serial number was used by Winchester, its a duplicate so to make it different Inland put an "X" after the serial number.


-All matching vs how it left the factory:

****** There is a difference between an all matching carbine and how it left the factory, a lot of M1 Carbine contractors shipped parts to other Contractors. Just because its all matching doesn't necessary mean that is how it left the factory. So don't get super disappointing if your Carbine is not all matching, its possible its exactly how it was when it left the factory!!! An example say Underwood was low on sears, Inland would ship some Sears to them. Sometimes marked or unmarked. Here is some known shipments to Inland, how ever there could be more shipments that occurred that are unknown but this is a good reference. (most parts were shipped together in groups, magazine catches with sears, etc)

(Organized by year. 1942 - 1944)

-Underwood shipped approximately 16,000 Firing pins to Inland in 1942.
-Winchester shipped approximately 1,200 firing pins to Inland in 1942.
-Rock-Ola Shipped approximately 10,000 sears to Inland in 1943.
-Underwood shipped approximately 4,000 Rear (Flip sights) to Inland in 1943.
-Winchester shipped approximately 4,000 hammers to Inland in 1943.
-National Postal Meter shipped approximately 25,000 Rear (Flip sights) to Inland in 1944.
-National Postal Meter shipped approximately 1,000 Rear Sight Leafs to Inland in 1944.

Example: You have an all matching Inland except hammer that's marked "W" for Winchester, there is a good chance it left the factory just like that!!!


Some history of Inland:

'"The Inland Manufacturing Division of General Motors was organized in 1922 for the manufacturing of wood wrapped steering wheels. The division used the buildings and technology of the defunct Dayton Wright Airplane Company. The division was unique as the only division created within the corporation, not acquired by purchase.

By 1924, the wooden steering wheel had been replaced with the hard rubber steering wheel and the division gradually transformed from a wood working operation to a rubber processing operation.

A wartime shortage of men and women to fill jobs led to the enactment of a “buddy” shift. The first business in Dayton to adopt the new buddy shift was Inland Manufacturing. In February 1943, Inland hired a number of high school boys to work at Inland after school until 7 p.m., at which time men and women who had full time jobs during the day would take over and work until 10 p.m.

Inland Division of General Motors was one of nine contractor-established manufacturing facilities that tooled up and turned out M-1 carbines during WWII, a five-pound rifle considered the nation’s best ordnance effort of the war. By the end of the war, Inland had produced over two and a half million carbines. Inland also produced a one-pound pistol called the “Little Monster”, which had been designed to be airdropped to resistance fighters in Europe.

During the war Inland also made tank tracks for America’s leading tank manufacturers, as well as Great Britain’s. At war’s end almost 20 million tank shoes of various sizes were fabricated by Inland. The diesel tank clutch was another product developed by Inland. Inland also made gun sights and shoulder rests for the rapid firing 20mm anti-aircraft gun. Helmet liners were produced in great quantities by Inland. Fire extinguisher horns used on United States Naval ships were in short supply and insufficient strength. Within 60 days Inland was mass-producing a new and improved horn. Inland aircraft hose, steering wheels, gaskets, sleeves, bushings and countless other small parts were produced for the war effort.

After the war, Inland applied its experience to mass produce plastic and rubber steering wheels, clutches, motor mounts, running boards, gravel shields, brake linings, weather strips, refrigerator door seals, defroster hose, small plastic parts, radio cabinets and many other products. Inland practically took over the metal ice tray business producing trays for almost all the large electric refrigerator companies.

By the 1950’s, Inland was making brake linings, bumpers, turn signals and a host of other automotive products. By 1982, it also was turning out fiberglass suspension springs for the Chevrolet Corvette.

In 1989, the Inland division was merged with Fisher Guide to form Inland Fisher Guide. That was later grouped with GM’s other components divisions to form the Automotive Components Group (ACG).

In 1995, ACG was renamed Delphi Automotive Systems and spun off from GM in 1999."

[command450]

The whole Carbine production program is an amazing read. much like all the war time ramp ups, the dedication,enginneering,hard work and determination to bring it to fruition, was mind boggling.

Inland and the other companies did a helluva job. The rifle served its "designated" role very well during the war and after.

Theres a old factory(whats left of it) in South Haven,MI. On Scout's list we can see it listed, S. E. Overton. they were a primary supplier of wood stocks to Inland and the others. I know one of the Grandsons of the deceased owners, and he brought in a book the company made about the making of the stocks.another great read.

More than likely your stock on your carbine was made there

[Scout]

IMO very interesting vintage vid about the workings of the M2.

M2 Carbine Operation
M2 Carbine Operation - YouTube

M2 carbine - How it works
M2 Carbine - How it works. - YouTube

M2 slo mo
M2 Carbine full auto ejection in hi speed - YouTube

M2 Carbine
M2 Carbine - YouTube

[Scout]

I had a look around and found this;

The FAL Files - Prohibited Parts of M2 Carbine?



The M1 carbine is unique in the aspect that the only difference between the automatic M2 variation of the receiver and the M1 receiver is the marking. The US and it's various allies over the years converted a large quantity of M1 carbines from semi-automatic only function to select fire weapons.

The parts used in these conversions include specific parts that when all assembled permit the user to select automatic fire. Many M1's have some of these parts without running afoul of NFA rules. Having ALL the parts is the issue, even if they aren't present with a receiver, they are considered a "machine gun". M2 specific parts include:

M2 trigger housing (special cuts that permit M2 conversion parts installation)
sear
hammer
disconnector block
disconnector lever
"9" spring
selector



It's not unheard of to find M1 carbines with M2 trigger housings, sears, hammers and even disconnector blocks and springs. The "no-no parts" (and many others will have opinions on this as well) are the disconnector lever, "9" spring and selector.




There is no reason to have these parts installed on a carbine unless you have a transferrable or otherwise legally papered M2 carbine. I've seen folks who have installed the "no no parts" on M1 carbines that were not equipped with the proper M2 internals but having a selector on a semi-automatic weapon may cause grief if you ever find yourself in the company of law enforcement (and there's no excuse for missing some trigger time at the range).





So, as command450 asked - are you sure, you have all the M2 parts?

I would exercise a bit of caution with a carbine with either/or the lever and/or all the 'proper' M2 parts. You might land in hot water with plod.

[Scout]

As is being discussed below in regards to M1/M2 Carbine owners in the US, you dont want to aquire intimate knowledge of ClubFed .....or in your case, the Belgian authorities

M2 Carbine?

[paco]

So, as command450 asked - are you sure, you have all the M2 parts?

I would exercise a bit of caution with a carbine with either/or the lever and/or all the 'proper' M2 parts. You might land in hot water with plod.

Hi, I don't know but i think 95% of the people live OUTside the US...

So, yes it has all the M2 parts, and yes, it has rock and rolllllllll.
It get's even better, i can legaly own FA guns, MG, dd ... since i have a collectors lisence
Thanks for the input sofar. The M1 seems to be an Inland GM
I heard the FN plant in Belgium did a large amount of the convertions in 44-45

[Scout]

Hi, I don't know but i think 95% of the people live OUTside the US...

Hmmm, that is not patronizing at all......

Bu yes, that is why I wrote the bit about 'in your case, the Belgian authorities.'

As is being discussed below in regards to M1/M2 Carbine owners in the US, you dont want to aquire intimate knowledge of ClubFed .....or in your case, the Belgian authorities

It might have been pertinent to mention, you could legally own these (though you obviously didnt think so). In that case I would have dispensed with the usual caveats, which helpful members here usually make sure to include.

Which 'the' people BTW? If you mean people in general, Im not so sure about that number. Thanks for sharing that tidbit of info none the less.
I certainly dont live there. Though some snotty examples of eurotrash sometimes makes me wish I did

So, yes it has all the M2 parts, and yes, it has rock and rolllllllll.
It get's even better, i can legaly own FA guns, MG, double decal ... since i have a collectors lisence

More power to you. I was only trying to offer advice, as we often see (the?) people here with newly discovered relic firearms but armed with no knowledge about potential legal problems. Also Europeans BTW.
It is after all better to err on the side of caution, but in your case I shall endevour to offer no input/advice in the future.
As you state, you have a 'collectors' liscence and can legally own these, I would have assumed you would have a modicum of knowledge about your field of collecting. I was obviously wrong. For that I apologize profusely.

[paco]

Hi Scout,
I'm just fooling you...
It's just that on nearly all military forums, folks asume everybody is an American...

I have some knowledge on Belgian and Browning items. However, i do collect (also modern) Belgian Army guns. Since our army had several US items as well Brittish items, i'm not so aware about this unusual M1.
I write for a gunmagazine and i got plans to write about this little gun...

So, any useful help is fine. There is a lot about the regular M1 an M2 on the net. Not so much about this converted M1. It seems originaly done to me.
thanks sofar

PAco