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Late War AC 45 P38 for opinions

Article about: I was able to add a very late, post US occupation P38 to the collection. An example of a C block Walther AC 45 pistol. According to smarter people than I the C & D Blocks of AC 45 produc

  1. #11

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    I was taking a better look at your p38 and have a couple of observations. On the right side of the slide, there are no proof marks. Usually there are three if slide was to be used for army usage. I believe for police pistols only one proof mark will be stamped on right side of slide.

    John

  2. #12

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    Quote by War Medals View Post
    I was taking a better look at your p38 and have a couple of observations. On the right side of the slide, there are no proof marks. Usually there are three if slide was to be used for army usage. I believe for police pistols only one proof mark will be stamped on right side of slide.

    John
    The C & D block guns lacked proof markings with the exception of the early C block prior to capture of the plant. The final proof firing and inspections were not taking place any longer.
    John

  3. #13

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    Interesting document John. Which do point to US authorities securing the factory site quickly, after some early looting? "parts of these pistols had been thrown everywhere." But no mention of seeing any workers or continuing production after liberation. I would think the Allied objective would be close down and secure munitions sites immediately until the surrender of Germany. Production may have recommenced after the war ended, but that's not during the Third Reich. Production of pistols for occupation forces/ export from late 1945 onwards is possible, and quite likely would use parts made during the war (and marked). The same happened with the Solingen blade factories the occupying GI's became a welcome market.

  4. #14

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    The documentation from Walther is pretty good from what I understand. The C & D blocks were specifically made during April & May of 1945. I cannot figure out any way these were produced without existing factory workers. It is possible that not very many new parts were fabricated during this time frame with just left over parts for assembly but there have been too many high d block serial numbers recorded with mismatched parts for me to believe correct. It does not make any sense to me that there were enough parts to make close to 20,000 completed pistols, while using USGI soldiers passing through this sector without some help from the factory workers that were there.
    There were many Germans that were happy to be liberated (conquered if you prefer) and wanted to make nice with the liberators even with misgivings. The war put stains on many of the peoples of Germany and some saw the end coming much earlier than other.
    John

  5. #15

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    John what is your understanding the reason would be to allow production to continue after April 6th when the US forces captured the factory?
    It's certainly a story I would like to dig into a bit more. Where is the dating of the C & D blocks coming from?

  6. #16

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    Quote by Anderson View Post
    John what is your understanding the reason would be to allow production to continue after April 6th when the US forces captured the factory?
    It's certainly a story I would like to dig into a bit more. Where is the dating of the C & D blocks coming from?
    This is the production chart that I normally use. Buxton's books also have production information but is scattered in the book by manufacture. This chart is accessible on the web so I should not be violating any rules. I do not know why the US allowed production to continue. There are also very few document examples in Europe as most of them were brought back into the US. I have not seen any import marked examples either, not to say there aren't any. I could not find much additional information. It feels like a forced souvenir shop handing out completed P38, that is my speculation only. Others on the forum must have some other information.

    Does anyone else have any examples to share?

    John

    Walther P38 Production Dates.pdf

  7. #17

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    That production chart has the following comment, "7) C & D block mis-matched pistols were assembled by former factory workers after the occupation for American G.I's (all went home to the US)." This is asterixed to "May 1945", but I wonder if the comment is actually meaning "post war assembly" and later than May 1945 and may be not at Zella-Mehlis?

    There is no reference to the origin of this claim. Can it be factually proved, or is it a legend?

    I did a search on the Walther factory at Zella-Mehlis and P38 production. I found many websites that covered the subject, but all stated that production of P38's ended on 3rd April 1945 with the arrival of Patton's 3rd Army. I could find no other reference to former factory workers completing assembly of P38s post arrival of the US Forces. What seems to be factual is the factory and weapons were secured the guarded from April 3. Technical experts from US came and visited the factory in April and took away plans and development documents. It seems likely the entire stock of weapons and parts were boxed up and shipped out away from the Front. The war ended 8th May and by June 1945 the territory including Zella-Mehlis and the Walther factory became part of the Soviet Occupation zone. By June the Soviets were removing factory machinery, including that used for P38 production and it was shipped back to the USSR. Then in July 1945 the Russians demolished the Walther factory.
    One thing I read was that almost all of the Walther production documents were lost, possibly transported to USSR.
    Unless some other source document emerges regarding assembly of mis-matched pistols, I don't think we have evidence this occurred in April or May 1945.
    Could this have occurred later, in 1946, 1947 or later? That's possible if no machining was required but it wouldn't have been at Zella-Mehlis. The mention of "former factory workers after the occupation for American GI's" does rather seem in keeping with a later post war date, and souvenirs for the army of occupation.

    I guess it possible that production was cranked up in early 1945 and that the C & D block production occurred in March 1945, which might explain how production could end 3 April and parts marked D found on site. It an interesting little story, hopefully some hard evidence one way or the other may emerge.


    [ATTACH=CONFIG]1302350[/ATTACH

    photo dated April 1945, Stg44's captured at Walther factory Zella-Mehlis
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Late War AC 45 P38 for opinions  

  8. #18

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    Thank you for posting additional information Anderson. It may be a continuation of an old story. I read a couple of posts on the P38 forum and the Walther forum with documented examples being traded to US GI's from factory workers for packs of cigarettes. That is all I could really come up with.

    Found this one also. Produced immediately post-war at the Walther factory for U.S GIs. Number manufactured: unknown. Serialized parts are found with "c" and "d" suffixes. Most have the first two of the three standard wartime stamps on the slide. Later in the serial number blocks only one or no slide stamps are found. Other stamps (such as "P.38") may be missing, and some parts may have no serial number.

    There was an interesting conversation about these here.

    Latest Find! P38, AC45, "c-block"! - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums

    John
    Last edited by Rescue190; 05-01-2019 at 04:51 PM.

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