Concentration Camp Glass with Swastika - Thoughts?

[Wagriff]

If you are already fully knowledgeable about this glass, then why are you here? This glass is supposed to have come from a "concentration camp"? Which camp? Did this camp produce cut glass and crystal? If this was supposed to have been made for an SS guard or officer and had been given to him in it's state of sloppy engraving, the prisoner would not have survived his sojourn at the camp much longer. The crude nonsensical swastika is crooked, poorly out of proportion and interferes with the cut glass decoration of the piece- it doesn't even Fit into the cartouche shield. You are, of course, perfectly free to keep and revere this treasure and believe whatever absurd story that you have been given with this idiotic modern day junk, but please don't waste our time and professional knowledge with this nonsense if your mind is already welded into place as to it's believability. People in boot sales Lying?? Say it isn't so! We hear these ridiculous same old-same old stories here more times than we can count.

[big ned]

Duncan,
Without the ability to hands on compare the glass to other period pieces, the members here are trying to give you the best info they can. If you feel good about it and have "glass experts" to back it up, why even ask. Display it and enjoy it. Don't ask for input and then raise your hand and say I disagree because I know experts. Stick with what your "experts" have told you....

Eloquently put, and I agree entirely.

Duncan, it's clear you want to believe in this item and others you show, regardless of other members considered thought and time spent offering opinions. That's fine, enjoy the hobby, but please don't keep asking for opinions here when the "experts" you have already engaged are happy the items are genuine. Actually, opinions are not what this is about for you, it's as clear as crystal (did you see what I did there) that you're looking for confirmation that the item(s) are good and won't entertain anything less. It's all about differences in opinion here, and there will always be when it comes to items such as this with zero provenance and without a hint of the expected quality of such an item produced by craftsmen. You need facts, and I fear those are going to be hard come by.

As this is the case then this thread will only degenerate until something causes a disagreement that closes it or gets it wiped altogether. Why not leave it lie eh?

Absit invidia, Ned.

[carpediem]

I completely understand this. However, surely we are able to debate this piece? I'm probing with good intention. I will question opinion in order to see the rationality behind thinking.

Duncan,
There is no debate when you accept no opinion contrary to that formulated within your own mind. Asking people to provide photos of a similar glass they saw in a market? One could as easily ask you to provide the credentials of all of your "experts". In the end, this piece resides in the realm of your acceptance of a story that is backed up by no evidence. If you went to the store tomorrow and saw that same crystal pattern, it would be pretty good circumstantial evidence that your piece is a fake. If you can deal with what you paid for it, and you believe it to be real, then that is all that matters. Enjoy it. There is no mystery to the rationality behind their opinions, they have included it in their posts.

[big ned]

If you are already fully knowledgeable about this glass, then why are you here? This glass is supposed to have come from a "concentration camp"? Which camp? Did this camp produce cut glass and crystal? If this was supposed to have been made for an SS guard or officer and had been given to him in it's state of sloppy engraving, the prisoner would not have survived his sojourn at the camp much longer. The crude nonsensical swastika is crooked, poorly out of proportion and interferes with the cut glass decoration of the piece- it doesn't even Fit into the cartouche shield. You are, of course, perfectly free to keep and revere this treasure and believe whatever absurd story that you have been given with this idiotic modern day junk, but please don't waste our time and professional knowledge with this nonsense if your mind is already welded into place as to it's believability. People in boot sales Lying?? Say it isn't so! We hear these ridiculous same old-same old stories here more times than we can count.

Harsh but fair.

[lew07]

Enjoy it for what it is...a beer mug Cheers!!!!

[DuncanWilson]

Gentlemen, I do apologize if I have caused any hurt here. I understand that many of you chaps are experts. I have only shown this glass to glass experts, and they themselves are divided over it. I am no expert, I cannot stress that enough. I do not disregard the opinions of the experts on here, I simply question as to why they may or may not think it is an authentic item. I'm simply trying to find out more information, which is what this forum is about. I recently posted some pictures of collar tabs, which turned out to be fake. This piece, however, is going to be much harder to prove. I do appreciate the help and advice of everybody on here, and I will continue to research this item. Up to now, I have been told that the glass is likely to be Czechoslovakian. I can find vaguely similar patterns online and in books, but nothing that matches it significantly. I have never been abrupt or intolerant to anyone on this forum, and some of the other members, I believe, have taken offense to what I have said, retaliating in feats of anger and intolerance. Again, I apologize for any hurt I have caused on here, but this is simply a discussion around a possible historic item. I'm all for constructive criticism, but I'm no idiot. I know fine well that stories, however elaborate, don't change the authenticity of an item. However, I also know that items mean nothing without a story, and had I been told that this was a modern piece of junk with no historical significance, I wouldn't have come on here to ask about it. Just because I think it is original, that does not exclude me from coming onto this forum to ask for the opinions of others. I am, of course, entitled to question those opinions. If there were one expert in the world that was never questioned by others, how would we know that he/she were truly telling the truth? I have a masters degree in chemistry, but I am questioned on a daily basis. This does not insult me, it encourages me to elaborate on my theories and opinions.

Warmest regards,

Duncan.

[bsiwula1]

Hello Duncan. Welcome to the forum. I have no dog in this fight but I'm curious about this discussion. To my eyes it looks as though the swastika is rather frosted in appearance? This could just be the pictures. I only ask as to me it seems to have been either sandblasted or etched. Rather than cut into the surface, which looks rather clear and glossy by comparison. As evident by the appearance of the wheat pattern surrounding it. This is a rather easy process to do compare to the plate glass I did recently for some Hoosier cabinet doors. IMO a old glass that has been dressed up in an attempt to increase its value. Do a thread search on third reich silverware, cigarette cases, watches etc.. and you will see this practice is commonplace with period items and since we so much of it, it's a rather lucrative buisness practice/deception I'd expect. In any event best of luck with your endeavors. Best regards.

Brian

[DuncanWilson]

Hello Duncan. Welcome to the forum. I have no dog in this fight but I'm curious about this discussion. To my eyes it looks as though the swastika is rather frosted in appearance? This could just be the pictures. I only ask as to me it seems to have been either sandblasted or etched. Rather than cut into the surface, which looks rather clear and glossy by comparison. As evident by the appearance of the wheat pattern surrounding it. This is a rather easy process to do compare to the plate glass I did recently for some Hoosier cabinet doors. IMO a old glass that has been dressed up in an attempt to increase its value. Do a thread search on third reich silverware, cigarette cases, watches etc.. and you will see this practice is commonplace with period items and since we so much of it, it's a rather lucrative buisness practice/deception I'd expect. In any event best of luck with your endeavors. Best regards.

Brian

Hi there, Brian. Thank you very much for your insightful response. I agree, the swastika is slightly frosted in comparison to the clear cut wreath of leaves around it. The swastika has definitely been applied at a later stage, but the problem lies in trying to identify as to when that was. The swastika is cut rather deep into the glass. What sort of tools would be required to achieve this, and how easy would it be considering it was done after the complete construction of the glass? I think it is likely to have been etched. Cheers!

All the best,

Duncan.

[bsiwula1]

Hey Duncan. Its nearly impossible to derminte how old the swastika is. If I'm being honest it could be as recent as yesterday. Sandblasting glass is a very easy process to do while yielding good results. Simply mask off the areas you want protected, put it in a cabinet blaster with a fine sand and concentrate on the unmasked area until the desired result is achieved. Trust me when I say you'd be surprised how tolerant glass is to this process. I estimate the plate glass I did was roughly a 1/16" to an 1/8" thick and I achieved etching of roughly 1/32" in depth. Easily noticeable to feel by hand. And plate glass would be much more fragile by comparison to your cup. I have no doubt the cup has age but to find that pattern and attribute it to a maker would be extremely difficult. I was born and raised in Mt. Pleasant PA a town known for glass manufacturing. Companies such as L.E Smith, Anchor Hawking, Bryce Brothers and Lenox all produced glass from this area for a period of over a hundred years. And to connect a piece of glass to one of them specifcally is difficult, and they are well know and documented manufacturers. In other words you have a tall hill to climb either way you try to come to a conclusion. It s as said a classic example of you like it that's really all that matters in the end. I wish I could be of more help. Again best regards.

Brian

[DuncanWilson]

Hey Duncan. Its nearly impossible to derminte how old the swastika is. If I'm being honest it could be as recent as yesterday. Sandblasting glass is a very easy process to do while yielding good results. Simply mask off the areas you want protected, put it in a cabinet blaster with a fine sand and concentrate on the unmasked area until the desired result is achieved. Trust me when I say you'd be surprised how tolerant glass is to this process. I estimate the plate glass I did was roughly a 1/16" to an 1/8" thick and I achieved etching of roughly 1/32" in depth. Easily noticeable to feel by hand. And plate glass would be much more fragile by comparison to your cup. I have no doubt the cup has age but to find that pattern and attribute it to a maker would be extremely difficult. I was born and raised in Mt. Pleasant PA a town known for glass manufacturing. Companies such as L.E Smith, Anchor Hawking, Bryce Brothers and Lenox all produced glass from this area for a period of over a hundred years. And to connect a piece of glass to one of them specifcally is difficult, and they are well know and documented manufacturers. In other words you have a tall hill to climb either way you try to come to a conclusion. It s as said a classic example of you like it that's really all that matters in the end. I wish I could be of more help. Again best regards.

Brian

Hi again, Brian. Thanks for that. It is certainly going to be difficult to find out much about it. I think it's safe to say that the swastika has been done by an unskilled person, and most certainly not the same person that made the glass. Anyway, I'll see where I can get with it.

All the best,

Duncan.