EAGLE DESK ORNAMENT real or fake?

[big ned]

No offence taken.
That is why I was asking you the reason for your previous post.

You have me sir, confused with another.... However, I welcome your offer of the new pic's, and should like to remind both you and the other respondent after me that I have not called the eagle an out and out fake, but only questioned it's veracity on the strength of the poor photo's already supplied. That needs to be verified one way or the other for this single part of the piece to stand a chance in my opinion as it's already been shown that there are various copies of it out there.

As for the sum of the remaining parts, I find it difficult to believe that this ensemble was originally produced like this, and at best it could be an original bird that's been used as the centre piece of a clumsy attempt to make something more interesting at sometime in it's past, but again, that's just my take on that.

Hopefully others here will offer more opinions after the new detailed pic's are posted.

Regards, Ned.

[ajax3985]

I don't think there is any doubt that the marble/ granite base the eagle sits on now is not the original base that the eagle would have had when it was bought or issued.
It appears to me that the eagle has been removed from its original base at some point and mounted to its current non-standard, non-issued base.
Unfortunately the plaque that Hgagnon refers to is missing which makes it difficult to ascertain whether the base is period or not. In my opinion, the base would certainly have taken some effort to manufacture, cutting out the plated brass sheet exactly to the profile of the marble, adding the feet etc - a lot of work for a faker to go to for very little return when he could have just mounted the eagle to a piece of period or non period marble as most of the repro versions of this eagle we see. I respect Big Neds and J.Wraith's opinion and believe that I understand why they have taken their position- this bird is reproduced a lot and the non-standard base would also immediately raise questions. Big Ned refers to an expected makers mark, foundry mark, artist mark etc but I personally have never seen an original version of this eagle with any of those marks. In fact there is a repro version of this eagle that displays a bogus Arno Breker artist mark when we know from photos of this eagle in the haus der kunst that he was not the designer of this eagle. In the absence of better photos or a photo of the back of the eagle, I still believe that this eagle is original, I have compared the posted photos with a known Canadian vet-return original and a number of different repros and this bird so far ticks all the boxes. I am aware that it is far more difficult to prove an eagle original than to label one a fake and it would be easier for me to also label this a repro than to justify it as an original but I would be doing Hgagnon a disservice. I would be comfortable adding a bird like this to my collection- although I would probably return it to an original style base. I am reluctant to give any reproducers a helping hand so for now will just post some repro examples.

The first Breker photo is mine I believe and original unless I forgot my own photo, the rest are fake.

[ajax3985]

Why chances are????
If the photos are not enough, what else would you like me to find out?

Big Ned has hit enough of the points really as I scan his response to see what he picked off that I might have missed. Marble is a pain in the butt to call but it does garner a patina and because these are catalog items most often the marble will be in line with other examples, so you can call marble and this piece is added. That is fine and more often than not marble is replaced as it broke at some point and more so on large pieces. The steel or aluminum plate to the bottom is not right outside a fairly interesting ball feet, so someone got lucky or knew ball feet are possible and probably a craftsman of sorts, its not right. Now that is just pointing at the base which is fabricated and added.

The bird is another matter and the amount of knock offs and things being done in the last couple years to do fakes are starting to show up more and more and I see a LOT of pieces here. I also get the fakers mailing me offering me their pieces. so I see what their doing and whats new as well, and the percentage of exotica, glass, porcelain, bronze, etc. pieces in the market is growing and some of it is very good, most of it fails but most guys buy this stuff as accent pieces so? they do not know. The bird photos are not good enough but its playing the game called hide the cast by placing an unorthodox copper/brass plat at the foot which is wrong, the block access to the interior cast even if you pull the bird off the marble. That is a huge flag. Between that and the fabricated base, mounting configuration and the lack of good photos its enough to suspect the piece is bad. Photos should include front, rear, sides and closeup. Keep in mind that detail does not man original as the process to knock one of these off often leaves a better cast than what the German's were doing in the period. So a really clean cast depending on the piece is also a flag.

[Erich S]

Yes, the first Breker signature is original and is on a large Hitler profile and not an eagle.

[Glenn66]

Keep in mind that detail does not man original as the process to knock one of these off often leaves a better cast than what the German's were doing in the period. So a really clean cast depending on the piece is also a flag.

So to be clear, you are saying a cast copy may be cleaner looking than the original? Surely if the cast is taken from an original the detail cannot become sharper? How could that be?

[mloppkit]

Apologies Ajax & Eric, I mis-labelled the signature accidentally, Ajax3985's photo is correct, the Breker signature is original on Eric's piece. The Breker mark I meant to post as Fake is this one on the repro eagle with the round base as a comparison to an original....I'll try again...

[ajax3985]

So to be clear, you are saying a cast copy may be cleaner looking than the original? Surely if the cast is taken from an original the detail cannot become sharper? How could that be?

Because depending on the piece and the process it can be cleaned up and it does not have to originally be a bronze in the first place, so you can cast a bronze off a piece of porcelain. There are a lot of little caveats and methods when these pieces come into play and the rules change a lot but the information is just not out there because when you put it out the fakers change their work.

Biggest mistake people make with this type of collectible or odd ball pieces in general is fall back on trust or good faith whether its a big name dealer or trusted source or laziness. You really can't because the amount of fakes is really high and birds are targeted as are dedications etc. Of course and keep in mind that I think this bird is going to be bad but the photo's are not sufficient and to be honest to get to the 100% mark I would have to tear it apart. The odds are not in your favor. I cannot buy this material readily because of the amount of bad pieces and the only way I could would be to stock in on fakes and that will never happen. Its an occasional piece that is grabbed more or less demand exceeds supply.

[mloppkit]

For those curious about these eagles, there is an excellent discussion about fake and original examples of these political birds on the sammlerstammtisch forum as well. Photos of the original vet return are posted with an known reproduction for comparison. There appears to be some differences between these two eagles and even though they are both on a marble base, neither bases look like Hgagnon's example....

[Hgagnon]

I took some close-up of the eagle. I did not take it from its base, I am too afraid to break something. It looks like some glue of varnish might be between the eagle and the marble base.

[ajax3985]

For those curious about these eagles, there is an excellent discussion about fake and original examples of these political birds on the sammlerstammtisch forum as well. Photos of the original vet return are posted with an known reproduction for comparison. There appears to be some differences between these two eagles and even though they are both on a marble base, neither bases look like Hgagnon's example....

I don't think this bird came on this marble. There is not a veteran story strong enough at this point to prop up another bird type as original and the problem is that they are flowing from the middle east and Europe. If you were watching these birds years ago it would be easier but now their all over the internet and there is money to be made. Until one can be examined and studied a little there is not a 100% answer. Wars over now a long time, new styles and Trans Am editions?. I guess I am just not feeling it and the fact is the fakes are getting better looking.