German Glass Gobblet

[big ned]

Hi Michael,

Are you absolutely sure it's glass? The fact that it "sweats" and is transparent hints it might actually be made from Prystal, a type of semi transparent Bakelite. Try rubbing the moisture with a Q-Tip to see if it leaves a yellow or brownish deposit. Or run it under a hot tap for a minute or two and then smell it. If it gives off a chemical smell then that's probably the formaldehyde that was used in it's production. It wouldn't surprise me that this is the case as it was one of the "wonder plastics" of the 30's alongside Bakelite, Galalith and celluloid and was used in many different types of manufacturing of fancy goods, jewellery, knife/cutlery fittings and a myriad of industrial items. Bear in mind that if the "sweat" is actually formaldehyde then it's rather toxic.

Regards, Ned.

[MAP]

100% sure it is glass or crystal Ned. It is heavy (2.5lbs) and has the sweet "ring" of crystal when tapped (even against my teeth LoL).

If it is a heretofore unknown wunder plastic it has me fooled.


Here are close ups of the sweating. The goblet is a bit dusty after sitting for over a year without being cleaned. The macro lens really makes it look like I'm a bad caretaker of this piece.

The Q Tip test does leave a very light yellow deposit.

I think it is partially due to the fact that it sits in a china cabinet and a reaction to the brown wash. But I'm no expert in this field. Heck, I'm not even a beginner.

[TTT28]

Looking it over, it reminded me of a communion chalice. The Germans weren't averse to putting the swastika on the communion altar so I could see it making its way onto the communion cup. As for non-standardization of the eagle, chaplains in German military in many respects were more about the people then the politics.

Just my guess... no historical backing.

Very interesting piece, Thanks for posting it MAP!

Tim T

[MAP]

Now THAT is very interesting and thank you for your contribution. I think this is a possibility given the similar styled chalice.

Michael

[Wagriff]

I looked again at this odd cup and 2 years later, I Still do not know what to make of it. It's decidedly not normal glass, as there are no mold seams or sharp pontil from blowing. I can't imagine it being ground down from a solid block of glass, so This would leave it being cut from solid rock crystal and dyed, or some form of colorized lead crystal or then again some perfectly unusual substance such as Ned suggested. I am most puzzled by the Sweating. This is something I have never noted in either crystal Or glass, so it can almost certainly be ascribed to the colorization process. Strange, though, that it doesn't seem to affect the density or darkness of the color despite the oozing. How long has it been doing this sweating, I wonder? Over 70 years? A shame the drops could not be analyzed by a lab to find out just what they actually are.

Material aside, again, I have never noted any such cup like it or the etched eagles, for that matter. A ceremonial cup, I would imagine, but for what and when is anyone's guess. It is, quite likely, a unique piece made for a single purpose. And not uncostly to produce. The German's of the TR had a leaning towards the bizarre rituals and obscure ceremonies. Is this from one of them? All I can say about it, I guess, is the same conclusion that I had arrived at the 1st time 2 years ago, and that is that it's "Interesting!"

[MAP]

Thanks William. It truly is one of those pieces we probably will never know what it's true purpose is. But I'm glad it resides in a collectors collection instead of being lost to time.

I'm now leaning towards it being crystal but glass it a possibility.

And as I said over 2 years ago... to "mis" quote Churchill, this Goblet "is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.

but in the end I'm sure it was well worth the $200 I bought it for.

[big ned]

What if it IS glass but with some type of coating, very possibly of a phenolic type used to colour it? Afterall, looking at it, the glass appears to be be clear and un-tinted using chlorides or oxides for colouring it throughout as can be seen by the "white" Reichsadler.

So could it be plain glass/crystal that's received a coating that when engraved allows the base material to show in vivid contrast? Then could the coating be of a type of phenol resin or laquer that was used to coat the glass and it is this breaking down that's causing the "sweating"?? Questions, questions, but it's hard to give an objective opinion without having the item in hand I guess.

Regards, Ned.

[MAP]

Thanks Ned

Chlorides, oxides, phenols..all Greek to me. But yes. It has been tinted. As you note, the Reichsadler shows this.

You are more then welcome to come over and spend a few days in my war room to inspect it in hand. Bring your chemistry set! you have an open invitation if you are ever in the NYC area. I sure do owe you a few beers or steak dinner.

Just hope that others like it as much as I do.

M

[big ned]

Thanks Ned

Chlorides, oxides, phenols..all Greek to me. But yes. It has been tinted.

M

Glass is coloured by the addition of various chlorides, sulphides, oxides and dioxides during it's production. For instance, red glass contains small amounts of gold chloride to give it it's colour. Consequently red glass is always more expensive than other colours such as cadmium sulphide for yellow glass and manganese dioxide for purple.

The "tint" I believe is perhaps a kind of laquer or shellac (hence the phenol supposition) that has been literally painted on and possibly treated by heat to aid it's adherence to the glass/crystal at some stage of the manufacture. Looking at it in the pic's make it appear tacky or oily, (perhaps it's starting to break down), almost like when you find stuff that's been in a smoky environment and has cigarette tar coating it, that also contains phenols but I'm in no way suggesting that's what it is, it's just a comparison.

Thanks for the kind offer of a steak in NYC, it would have to be in Keen's of course. Lol. Although somehow I think my days of travelling abroad are long gone now unfortunately, but it's the thought that counts!

Regards, Ned.

[MAP]

Thank you for the lesson Ned. You always amaze me (and I'm sure the collective "us") with the depth and breath of your knowledge.

And you are not a cheap date. Keens is top tier and has a wonderful Scotch selection. I myself prefer (although a step below Keens) Uncle Jacks and their "bone in" Fred Flintstone prime rib. Or should I say my dog loves it. The bone is easily 15 inches long.