Article about: Hi Guys, I am currently trying to research Hitler's Special Train & establish how rare the DR silverware from Hitler's and Göring's dining carts is. Does anybody have any knowledge on th
I am currently trying to research Hitler's Special Train & establish how rare the DR silverware from Hitler's and Göring's dining carts is. Does anybody have any knowledge on this or interesting pieces in their collections they would like to share?
Hi Harry,
Welcome, Love to help historians.
your statement/question"
"I am currently trying to research Hitler's Special Train & establish how rare the DR silverware from Hitler's and Göring's dining carts is. Does anybody have any knowledge on this or interesting pieces in their collections they would like to share? "
First what is your hypothesis. I think it goes without says original silverware items from Hitlers or Georings train cars ect is rare.
if you are looking to try to document the totality of the full sets of silverware that would be impossible. Between souvenir hunters and the allied forces graping this stuff most of it is going to be in private collections.
I know original pics of these trains exist from the period. so that may help.
Also like I said there are pieces in thread on this site.
I ask as a historian to make sure if you copy any pictures ect please make sure you ask permission to use ect. always give full credit.
if you cut corners you will suddenly find help is hard to come by. Not that you would I am just putting it out there
The gents are always willing to help, just be clear in what you need or are seeking.
Thanks for that. I am a bit of a novice at the forum thing! I have a few nice pieces from Hitler's Special Train (242) and am just looking to get any information at all really on DR Silver.
Here are a couple of nice photos of Göring holding a meeting outside his special train. Clearly seen is the DR silverware from that train in use.
Sorry it looks like these did not come out the first time. These are amazing photos of Göring holding a meeting outside his special train. Clearly seen is the DR silverware from that train in use.
I know nothing on this subject, but are the DR pieces shown just generic DR silverware used on any train or special to this (and similarly used) trains?
One would assume that the china pieces are scarcer, being breakable.
Regards,
Pete
Hi Pete, There are several internet references and at least two books which help identify the numbers associated with the railway cars (usually referred to as wagons) on the special trains. The following is far from a complete list but it clearly identifies the specific examples I have shown here.
Wagon # Description Which Train
# 241 primary dining car Göring’s Train
# 242 primary dining car Hitler’s Train
# 243 salon car/back up dining car Göring’s Train
# 244 salon car/back up dining car Hitler’s Train
Hitler
Hitler’s Train (Führersonderzug- leader’s special train) was originally named Amerika. In September of 1939 it was renamed Einheit III. In 1943 the name was changed to Brandenburg and in March of 1945, it received its last (German) name which was Brandenburg I. After the war it was used by Dwight Eisenhower.
Göring had two trains (Sonderzug- special train) at first they were called Asien I and II. One is shown in the period photo with the same sugar bowls for his train clearly seen in use.
OK in answerer to my question last week and after a little research, there appears to be quite a variety of DB numbered silverware out there from a number of special trains.
Hitler, Goring and other Third Reich VIPs had special trains. Hitler’s train had a large staff and had two dining carts, There where two full time silver polishers on Hitler’s train.
Tableware from wagon 244 is probably the most available of the Special train cutlery due to the large numbers required to support 14 tables with 42 seats and the fact that the wagon was in the U.S. area at the end of the war. On the other hand, since it is directly related to Hitler and the fact that Hitler's private wagon 10 206 was blown up with none of his 206 cutlery surviving, the 244 pieces do command a premium with a single tea spoon selling for well over $1000.
Wagon 10 242 in Hitler's special train was the VIP dining wagon with a single dining table seating 15 and a lounge area with 6 easy chairs.
For this reason not only is 242 silverware the hardest of all to find but it also commands the highest premium.
These are now considered very rare pieces indeed when compared to the general AH silverware and are now becoming much more sort after.
I just purchased 8 pieces of cutlery from the Führersonderzug GI bringbacks
6 are 244 marked, 1 is 225 marked which is slightly rarer as this car was added in 1942
And 1 piece is a Floater..IE unmarked if a piece was damaged or missing this piece would be marked and substituted..all are textbook Bruckmann stamped
Cheers
Fraser
this set was all brought back from a member of Eisenhower's staff and has been in the family until recently released here in the States. All pieces came back together and most are 242, and 244 however one piece is stamped 214 and it does not appear like it is a "4" that didn't get stamped correctly even though possibly removed from the "244" car with the other items. Was Hitler's train even that big and contained a 214 car?
I think I saw somewhere that 213 was Ribbentrop's dining car? Was 214 his as well?
according to wikipedia:
There were other special trains (Sonderzüge in German) used by prominent German officials;[12][13]
Ministerzug (Ministers' Train), used by Joachim von Ribbentrop and Heinrich Himmler
Sonderzug "Afrika" (also called "Braunschweig"), used by the chief of the Armed Forces High Command (Oberkommando der Wehrmacht , OKW))
Sonderzug "Asien" (also called "Pommern"), used by Hermann Göring
Sonderzug "Atlantik" (also called "Auerhahn", "capercaillie"), used by the supreme commander of the Navy (Kriegsmarine)
Sonderzug "Atlas" (also called "Franken"), a command train used by the Armed Forces Operations Staff (Wehrmachtführungsstabes)
Sonderzug "Enzian" ("gentian"), a command train used by the chief of the Intelligence branch of the Luftwaffe (Nachrichtenwesens der Luftwaffe)
Sonderzug "Ostpreußen" (also called "Sonderzug 4"), used by the Army General Staff (Oberkommando des Heeres, OKH))[a]
Sonderzug "Robinson 1", used by the chief of the Command Staff of the Luftwaffe
Sonderzug "Robinson 2", used by the chief of the General Staff of the Luftwaffe
Sonderzug "Steiermark" (also called "Heinrich" and "Transport 44"), used by Heinrich Himmler
Sonderzug "Westfalen", used by Joachim von Ribbentrop
Sonderzug "Württemberg", used by the Army General Staff (Gen. St.d. H. – Generalstabs des Heeres)
Hitler's Special Train.
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