Nazi Atomic Bomb

[drmessimer]

This is an interesting thread that Tempelhof has launched, though the claims made, and the sources cited, illustrate the attraction that always attends an alleged revelation of a deep secret from WWII. Several years ago I was a manuscript reader for the Naval Institute Press, which at the time was considering publishing a book about the final voyage and capture of the U-234. The boat was carrying samples of high-tech developments to Japan when the war ended. She surrendered to the USS Sutton on 14 May 1945. In the manuscript, the authors, without citation, claimed that the Japanese had already "tested a small atomic bomb in the Pacific." So, we are to believe that the testing of various nuclear devices by Germany and Japan prior to the United States' use of the atomic bomb in 1945 went completely unnoticed. As a military historian who has worked in the field for over fifty years, I don't believe any of these claims. Woolgar and Tempelhof have provided well founded and detailed information that refutes most or all the the claims made. To that I will add that events of such magnitude as the clandestine testing of nuclear devices in WWII would be impossible to keep secret for so many years. There are always witnesses and participants, and someone would have talked long before now. And I think it's important to remember that before the war even ended, the United States launched Operation Paperclip with the specific objective of recovering as much German technological development as was possible, and, my friends, Operation Paperclip was enormously successful. I seriously doubt that a German automic bomb would have slipped through the net. Dwight

[tempelhof]

re: posts saying classification is used when there is "something to hide"... things aren't classified as to content. they are classified as to source and what this reveals about capabilities and methodologies. most people on the outside believe that governments secrets are "secrets" in the sense of what people understand that word to mean on the street. to people on the outside, a secret is some embarrassing or personal fact or scandal or simply "something government doesn't want anyone to know"... a fact that must be hidden.

but in general, this is not what governments mean when they use the terms "CONFIDENTIAL", "NOFORN", "eyes only", "SECRET", or "TOP SECRET" and all the various caveats associated with these levels of classification.
government only cares about what our knowledge of specific content reveals about where we were and when and how we were there.

as an example, if you get on your phone everyday and discuss your recent symptoms with your doctor and you have told no one else that you were sick, we would classify the transcripts of this call. and that would not be because we don't want anyone to know you are sick or what your symptoms are. we don't care who knows that. we classify that because we want to hide that we know it. not what we know. if it were made public that you are sick through us, we would not worry that now people know you are sick. we would worry that you would quickly conclude that either your phone, your home, your doctor's office, or your doctors phone is bugged. you would find that bug, and we would lose money and time and this source as an asset. that's all we care about.

so in the end... yes, there is something to hide. but unlike what the uninitiated believe... that it is the actual facts discovered that must be hidden, it is rather what our possession of the facts reveals to our target about our capabilities and methods to the extent that, armed with this knowledge, our enemies can learn how to operate in a way we can no longer easily bring into the light.

these are just my own comments on the relatively arcane topic of classification and what it means. it is a widely misunderstood topic and i don't think i've ever met anyone who, on the outside, understood the sense of "secret" as one does on the inside.

[tempelhof]

basically, if there was an event to which there were witnesses especially or an event where the knowledge of the relevant facts in and of itself does not expose details as to our own capabilities or methods or ability to have discovered those facts, there is no classification.

especially a 100 year classification.

having been there, knee deep in middle of secrets, i just have trouble understanding what about the Germans having a bomb first is even remotely classified. if they controlled this program so carefully that we followed it with methods and capabilities still in wide use today... maybe. but that would earn a 25 year classification with periodic review.

i know some pretty scary things and some pretty interesting ways about how we got those things that don't have 100 year classifications on them. Germany having a bomb in WW2 just isn't going to be one of them to someone coming from where i come from.

this is why i doubt the classification.

[tempelhof]

as i sit here and think, there are some files classified as to content, but these are rarer. i've only seen one that i think i could pigeonhole this way. and the classification was on the lower end of things.

these would be things like the cold war evacuation plan for West Berlin in the event of then soviet hostilities. this is the only file i can think of in many years of "being there" that i think was classified not only because the operational content, but also because i really don't think most people would have liked what was there on an emotional level. this file always stuck out to me for that reason, and does to this day.
but here again... we are talking about methods.
so simply the fact that we had a plan to evacuate Berlin... this is not why the file is classified. it is classified because of methond... what that evacuation would look like.

also, during war, battle plans etc. but here, these are obviously not classified for 100 years or to hide a scandalous or tantalizing fact. the purpose here is more to save lives. so these aren't purely classified to content either. it's something where there is a difference that in some cases is very, very subtle and in other cases a little more clear.

[mauser9]

Will do Operaman. Did see something on the Baltic test a couple years ago you mentioned and it does get one wondering. As far as the testing of all this weaponry I believe there is a book entitled The Bell which discusses Hans Kammler and his secret work. Believe work area was flooded at end of war to keep from falling into enemy hands. Wish to hell we knew the absolute truth about just one of these mysteries. Trouble is we may never know.

[alikat]

Kammler disappeared at the end of the war, but there is record of a civilian JU 290 landing in Barcelona (from Prague) with SS officers on board, but no names were released by the Spanish. The Rugen test was witnessed by the Italian Ambassador to Germany and there is a Youtube video of an interview with him. They also had one with the University of Heidelberg (I think) testing the soil at Rugen and a large crater in Pommerania (I think) and finding glazed rocks indicating a nuke blast of some form. Also just outside Berlin was a nuke facility run by the SS where the atomic reaction went critical and killed several of the scientists. Again radioactive material was found. This could have been a dirty bomb if they didn't have the formula right, but still deadly (and could potentially change the war outcome) if it had been used on major cities like London, NY, DC or Moscow. There is also a story about a U boat capitan who was to have delivered a dirty bomb to either NY or DC and maps detailing the blast area etc. Fakes?? who knows. Is this why Eisenhower said that had the war lasted a few months more we might have lost?

Whilst touring the WW2 tunnels at Dover, the guide said they had found some tunnels they had no records of, but were told these were still protected by the Official Secrets Act - this some 60 years after the end of the war. Cold war bunkers for the political elite? I think the Jonas Valley complex in Thuringia is covered by a 100 yr secrecy order by the U.S. Also Operation Sunrise, where the OSS secretly negotiated with elements of the SS for their surrender. A lot of stuff went on at the end of the war that some countries still find embarassing. I believe that David Irving has a new book on Himmler that discloses more on the British plan to have him terminated before anyone else got him to talk. He would have been a great witness at Nuremberg!

[mauser9]

Kammler disappeared at the end of the war, but there is record of a civilian JU 290 landing in Barcelona (from Prague) with SS officers on board, but no names were released by the Spanish. The Rugen test was witnessed by the Italian Ambassador to Germany and there is a Youtube video of an interview with him. They also had one with the University of Heidelberg (I think) testing the soil at Rugen and a large crater in Pommerania (I think) and finding glazed rocks indicating a nuke blast of some form. Also just outside Berlin was a nuke facility run by the SS where the atomic reaction went critical and killed several of the scientists. Again radioactive material was found. This could have been a dirty bomb if they didn't have the formula right, but still deadly (and could potentially change the war outcome) if it had been used on major cities like London, NY, DC or Moscow. There is also a story about a U boat capitan who was to have delivered a dirty bomb to either NY or DC and maps detailing the blast area etc. Fakes?? who knows. Is this why Eisenhower said that had the war lasted a few months more we might have lost?

Whilst touring the WW2 tunnels at Dover, the guide said they had found some tunnels they had no records of, but were told these were still protected by the Official Secrets Act - this some 60 years after the end of the war. Cold war bunkers for the political elite? I think the Jonas Valley complex in Thuringia is covered by a 100 yr secrecy order by the U.S. Also Operation Sunrise, where the OSS secretly negotiated with elements of the SS for their surrender. A lot of stuff went on at the end of the war that some countries still find embarassing. I believe that David Irving has a new book on Himmler that discloses more on the British plan to have him terminated before anyone else got him to talk. He would have been a great witness at Nuremberg!

You raise some very interesting possiblities. Believe I did see a documentary on the Italian that was said to have witnessed an atomic test or whatever. On the subject of the flooded mine areas where Kammler was suppose to have worked I bet that could reveal some secret projects. Be interesting to find out the truth but we may never know.

[Glenn66]

Conspiracy theories sell books...

This I believe is the driving force behind the majority of such 'secrets'. When coupled with the private fetishes of some people who desire that Germany had developed the 'bomb' and won WW2 there is a perfect recipe for some money making by the unscrupulous at the expense of the gullible.

[mauser9]

Conspiracy theories sell books...

This I believe is the driving force behind the majority of such 'secrets'. When coupled with the private fetishes of some people who desire that Germany had developed the 'bomb' and won WW2 there is a perfect recipe for some money making by the unscrupulous at the expense of the gullible.

You could very well be correct Glenn. Appreciate the input.

[big ned]

Conspiracy theories....? Unscrupulous.....? David Irving....!!! Never, I say,.... NEVER!!!