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Very Interesting Tan Ammo Pouch

Article about: I picked this up today. A nice interesting little piece with a story I'm trying to unravel. Interesting issue #1 It is a single K98 ammo pouch. I have never seen a single pouch before. It is

  1. #1
    MAP
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    Default Very Interesting Tan Ammo Pouch

    I picked this up today. A nice interesting little piece with a story I'm trying to unravel.

    Interesting issue #1

    It is a single K98 ammo pouch. I have never seen a single pouch before. It is also a light tan color. I first thought it was Luftwaffe but in hand it is quite light in color. It also has NO maker marks.

    Any idea?? Political? SA? Why single? Guard duty?

    Interesting issue #2

    This is a nice named vet bringback. Vet is R.S Smith, serial number 31154911. Raymond Smith was 24 when he enlisted in 1942 in Vermont as a private but the pouch has him as a Technical Sgt.

    But he was a Canadian citizen..... Not American. Records indicate he was from either Newfoundland or Labrador.


    Interesting issue #3

    "4. Passau" is written on the pouch. What does this mean I ask myself....



    Now Passau has a very interesting history. Hitler lived there, and apparently Himmlers family as well. There was a large Austrian Legion and SA Barrack as well as housing three sub-camps of the Mauthausen-Gusen concentration camp: Passau I , Passau II and Passau III.


    So what are all your thoughts........(this item was not sold as anything special)

    Would love some debate and feedback on this...

    And enjoy the pictures! Double click to expand to high resolution.

    Thanks and Regards,

    Michael

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    My greatest fear is that one day I will die and my wife will sell my guns for what I told her I paid for them

    "Don't tell me these are investments if you never intend to sell anything" (Quote: Wife)

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  3. #2

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    Often issued to Guards in their duties supervising inmates...If he is overpowered by inmates and they take his rifle and ammo, the authorities hunting for the escapee know that he's only got 10 Rounds at the most...
    cheers, Glenn
    Last edited by bigmacglenn1966; 09-24-2016 at 11:19 PM.

  4. #3
    MAP
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    Quote by bigmacglenn1966 View Post
    Often issued for Guards in their duties supervising inmates...If he is overpowered by inmates and they take his rifle and ammo, the authorities hunting for the escapee know that he's only got 5 Rounds at the most...
    cheers, Glenn
    Great information Glenn....

    What gets me is that it has no markings. Is it SA?? or Luft?? or, stretching reality, if we assume the Passau writing is legit could it be from the camps? Or maybe it is non military (Civil) guard duty?
    My greatest fear is that one day I will die and my wife will sell my guns for what I told her I paid for them

    "Don't tell me these are investments if you never intend to sell anything" (Quote: Wife)

  5. #4

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    Quote by MAP View Post
    Great information Glenn....

    What gets me is that it has no markings. Is it SA?? or Luft?? or, stretching reality, if we assume the Passau writing is legit could it be from the camps? Or maybe it is non military (Civil) guard duty?
    I'm just now paying attention to the markings, lol...which would suggest that it was likely used by Guard Personnel, considering the number of camps in the area...Looks like you've done some good research already, well done! I would suppose "Fulda 4" would be
    the Camp Designation among the personnel ... I don't know who liberated the area, perhaps there were Canadians involved?
    These are the pieces I enjoy the most, the ones that tell a story with a tad of mystery for good measure, lol...
    Sometimes these were made by splitting up a normal pouch, hence no markings...
    cheers, Glenn

  6. #5
    MAP
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    Thanks again Glenn.

    I was thinking cut down as well but in looking at a typical pouch I have, as well as JP Borgs book, the stitching would be different. So I think this was made this way. Not an expert though.

    If it was a concentration camp pouch, I would have thought it would have been black. Unless maybe there was a Luft POW camp in the area?? (Reaching again).

    While he appears to be Canadian, according to the records, we was separated (or divorced) and living in Vermont. Maybe he had a type of "Green Card"? Because he was enlisted in the US Army.

    The area immediately after the war was under US control and an camp for "displaced persons".

    Of the four items I picked up today, this little itty bitty piece is the most interesting!!!

    This is from Wiki (for what it is worth)

    From 1892 until 1894, Adolf Hitler and his family lived in Passau.[5] The city archives mention Hitler being in Passau on four different occasions in the 1920s for speeches. On November 3, 1902 Heinrich Himmler and his family arrived from Munich. They lived at Theresienstraße 394 (currently Theresienstraße 22) until September 2, 1904. Himmler maintained contact with locals until May 1945.

    In November 1933, the building of Nibelungenhalle (Hall of the Nibelungs) was announced. Intended to hold 8,000 to 10,000 guests, and another 30,000 in front of it, in 1935 the hall also became quarters for a unit of the Austrian Legion.[6] Beginning in 1934, these troops had occupied a building that belonged to Sigmund Mandl, a Jewish merchant. That building, in turn, was referred to as SA barracks.[7]

    Beginning in 1940, Passau offered the building at Bräugasse 13 to Volksdeutsche Mittelstelle.[8]

    During World War II, the town also housed three sub-camps of the infamous Mauthausen-Gusen concentration camp: Passau I (Oberilzmühle),[9] Passau II (Waldwerke Passau-Ilzstadt) and Passau III (Jandelsbrunn).

    On May 3, 1945, a message from Major General Stanley Eric Reinhart’s 261st Infantry Regiment stated at 3:15 am: "AMG Officer has unconditional surrender of PASSAU signed by Burgermeister, Chief of Police and Lt. Col of Med Corps there. All troops are to turn themselves in this morning."

    It was the site of a post World War II American sector displaced persons camp.
    My greatest fear is that one day I will die and my wife will sell my guns for what I told her I paid for them

    "Don't tell me these are investments if you never intend to sell anything" (Quote: Wife)

  7. #6
    MAP
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    Here is the NARA records for Mr. Smith (kind of funny...like he was trying to hide his identity with a name like that LoL)

    He is listed as a "non-citizen" and a cook. I guess that would tie in with his Technical Sgt rank...

    https://aad.archives.gov/aad/record-...=1&rid=2341197
    My greatest fear is that one day I will die and my wife will sell my guns for what I told her I paid for them

    "Don't tell me these are investments if you never intend to sell anything" (Quote: Wife)

  8. #7
    MAP
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    Just bumping this...would love to hear more theories, facts, guesses.

    Just for what it is worth, nothing I've postulated above is fact....just trying to understand the piece.....
    My greatest fear is that one day I will die and my wife will sell my guns for what I told her I paid for them

    "Don't tell me these are investments if you never intend to sell anything" (Quote: Wife)

  9. #8

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    IMHO a cut pouch.... That's why there are no markings (these are on the middle piece)

    Pencil markings could be from anywhere, unfortunately no way of knowing

    What is sure is: it's part of un undyed early pouch (aluminium hardware)..

    Also not a fact , but these undyed pouches were used in Afrika....

    When and why it was cut: a lof of hunters bought these pouches(they were 5 mark for a complete pouch when i was a kid) and cut them up because they didn't need a while lot of ammo in the field when hunting

    Just some thoughts from my part 😉

    Tom

  10. #9

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    Hello,
    I agree with Tom, it's a cut-off left pouch from a standard 3 Pocket ammo pouch.....
    Tom, don't you think that it's rather a political/police pouch than an early DAK one
    Thanks
    "I didn't use any weapon in combat during the war, but i killed hundreds, perhaps thousands of men...they're now at the bottom of the sea"
    Walter Borg (ex-MI6) Agent and radio operator in Malta, Tunisia and Italy between 1941 and 1945. Arrested twice, tortured twice, escaped twice, survived the war...



    "The future torments us, the past holds us, that is why the present escapes us."
    Gustave Flaubert

    In Memoriam :
    Laurent Huart (1964-2008)

  11. #10

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    I just got these in - A Superb Matched Pair of Brown Ammunition Pouches | Eagle Relics

    I wasn't sure which branch - I would say Luftwaffe, but better not to say if you're not sure
    Cheers
    John


    When you're wounded and left of Afghanistan's plains,
    An' the women come out to cut up what remains,
    Jest roll to your rifle an' blow out your brains,
    An' go to your Gawd like a soldier." - Rudyard Kipling

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