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1938 order for SA-flags, unit-numbers, special devices, traditions-numbers and names

Article about: At WAF, a nice SA flag was shown with a unit-number and a series of traditions-numbers. To me it is obvious that only a few persons have a reasonable knowledge about the "how and what&q

  1. #1

    Default 1938 order for SA-flags, unit-numbers, special devices, traditions-numbers and names

    At WAF, a nice SA flag was shown with a unit-number and a series of traditions-numbers.
    To me it is obvious that only a few persons have a reasonable knowledge about the "how
    and what" for such flags. As I am not able to post images there, I asked "oldflagswanted"
    to be so kind to take over this for me and I gave him the material (four pages from the
    order). He posted it kindly as agreed!

    As I do not want members from the War Relics Forum be devoid from this information,
    I will also show here at WRF the complete order (in German), along with some other
    photographs and, when finding the time, to give indications and/or a very brief explanation.

    The order (the date is obvious) was published, due to the fact that many flags were not according
    to the orders. For traditions-numbers and names they were in white or yellow, according to the color
    for the worn buttons.

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    When specific information is needed, please ask. Some photographs will be added
    at a later moment. So, please have some patience! Today I can't make it, but
    Monday September 8 I will do my best.

    All of this information and much more, including lots of photographs were planned
    for a book about SA flags, which I wrote in about 1993/1994. It was laying for
    years at some German publisher, who neglected agreements. When Ulric of England
    relased his book in 1997, I asked back my material and had no plan anymore to
    publish it. The book would have included (practically) all SA honor names to be
    used with the SA Sturm-flags with dates of granting etc. etc.
    Last edited by Wilhelm Saris; 09-07-2014 at 06:34 PM.
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

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  3. #2

    Default

    Work in progress!
    Some photographs with eventually related information for the interest of the WRF-members:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	z5 img166 bob velsir leibstandarte münchen.jpg 
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    Part of a flag from the SA-group of Hochland, specifically the SA-Leibstandarte from
    Munich with the Sturm-number 14 and the former numbers 31 and 10 in white, which is according
    orders, as the button for the Leibstandarte had the silver color.
    The Leibstandarte existed within brigade 85. In about 1935 this brigade included 6 more Standarte-
    numbers: 1, S1, 2, 16/List, the reserve-unit for the Leibstandarte and the reserve-unit for S1.
    (credit: Bob Velsir)

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	z6 img167 ed stadnicki 13. reserve sturm 138 from Duisburg niederrhein.jpg 
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    Part of a flag from the SA-group of Niederrhein. the 13th reserve Sturm from the reserve-Standarte
    138, which is Duisburg. All other traditons-numbers are from the same reserve-Standarte. The color for
    the traditions-number yellow is correct as a yellow button was worn. 23 was the first Sturm which did
    possess this flag.
    (credit: Ed Stadnicki)

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	z7 img169b nat.archives a-sa-flag-5.jpg 
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    Two flags with honor-names are in use during the visit of an Italian authority. At left is a flag with the name
    Richard Harwik in Latin letters; at right the name Friedrich Hellmann in Gothic. The name Harwik was
    granted February 1, 1933 to Sturm 65/6 from Berlin. He was killed by marxists October 27, 1932; the name
    Hellmann was granted September 23, 1932 to Sturmbann IV from Standarte 132 from Berlin (see traditions
    patch) and in the lower corner the repair for this flag. Hellmann was killed April 8, 1932 by communists.
    When for the name Harwik the old instructions had been followed the name would have been correctly
    in Gothic also (in lieu to the worn cuffbands for SA-Standarte with a honor-name). See close-ups below.
    (credit: National Archives)

    Name:  z7a img169b a-sa-flag-5 - kopie (2) Richard Harwik 01-02-1933 sturm 65-6 berlin.jpg
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Name:	z8 img168 saris münchener gedenkfeier 09-11-1934 st 1-leibstandarte münchen max-erwin .jpg 
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ID:	737677 Name:  z8a img169 name granted 01-01-1933 sturm-leibstandarte münchen.jpg
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    During a memorial service on November 9, 1934 the flag for Sturm 1 from the Leibstandarte from the SA-
    group of Hochland was flown with an interesting patch (in light-blue) with the indication 1/L and the name
    Max-Erwin v(on) Scheubner-Richter. Old fighter Scheubner-Richter was one of those that was killed at the
    Feldherrnhalle-building. The name was announced in the Verordnungsblatt der Obersten SA-Führung from February
    1, 1933. See close-up from the special flag patch.
    (credit: W.Saris)

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	z9 img169c a-sa-flag-9 eelking name granted01-04-1933 sturm 32-3 berlin-britz.jpg 
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    Drawing as published in the well-known "Die Uniformen der Braunhemden" by Freiherr von Eelking from March 1,
    1934 with the honor name Willy Walter for Sturm 32/3 from Berlin-Britz. The name was granted April 1, 1933.
    Walter perished during SA-service. The second photograph is from the magazine "Die Bekleidungsarbeit" from March
    19, 1936. Two ladies are repairing the flag for Hans E. Maikowski by netting. The flag is hung and at both sides a sort of net
    was knotted to the original flag, so the flag could not be damaged more. A flag as this was not carried along anymore
    during parades or so, but positioned at a proper spot in the hall of a special room from headquarters (Ehrenhalle).
    (credit: W.Saris)

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    Flag with the honor-name Friedrich Heine in white for Sturm 22 from Standarte 138 (Duisburg), the SA-group of
    Niederrhein. When done well the patch with the name would have been positioned horizontal, instead of vertically.
    Truppführer Heine was shot by oponents on March 4, 1933.
    (credit: Bob Coleman via OFW))

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Name:	z12 sa-11-25Wilhelm Hambückers perry floyd.jpg 
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    Flag with the honor name Wilhelm Hambückers in golden embroidery from Sturm 15 from Standarte 25, the SA-
    group of Niederrhein. The Sturm was located at Merkstein. Sturmführer Hambückers was killed by communists June
    20, 1932.
    (credit: Perry Floyd via OFW)

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	z13 img169a a-netted sa-flag-4 werner wessel granted 12-10-1931 sturm 1-4 berlin.jpg 
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    Netted flag with the name Werner Wessel in Latin. With the next photo the meaning for "netted" will be explained.
    The name was granted October 12, 1931 to Sturm 1 from Standarte 4 from Berlin, the SA-group of Berlin-Brandenburg.
    He perished during a snow-storm. The second photo is from the magazine "Die Bekleidungsarbeit" from March 18, 1936.
    Two ladies are repairing the damaged flag for Hans E. Maikowski. The flag is hung and on both sides a sort of net is
    positioned, which is knotted to the original flag. A flag like this had to be positioned at a proper spot, the hall or a special
    room from the headquarters (Ehrenhalle). Sturmführer Maikowski died January 31, 1933 after he was shot by communists
    January 30th. When the name was granted to the 4th Sturm is not known. December 21, 1933 the "Deutschland erwache"
    -Standarte 1 from Berlin-Charlottenburg was granted this name and so its members were allowed to wear the special cuffband
    with honor-name. Upon the box for the De (Querbalken) the name was positioned.
    (credit: W.Saris)

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	z15 sa31-75Wilhelm Decker bob coleman.jpg 
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Name:	z15a sa31-75Wilhelm Decker-2.jpg 
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    The name Wilhelm Decker was granted January 26, 1932 to Sturm 3/75 from Bremen, the SA-group then known as Nord.
    Later this was SA-group Nordsee. Decker was stabbed to death by a member from the Reichsbanner November 9, 1931. Standarte
    75 was the original Standarte, but at a specific time the flag was handed over to Sturm 11 from Standarte 266 (its location is not
    exactly known to me). According to the 1938-regulation the traditions-patch in green should not have that color. This should be white.
    Patches in colors as like the collar-patches were officially not allowed to be sewn as traditions-patches.
    (credit: Bob Coleman via OFW)

    Note that differences in what had to be done, and actually was done, was the reason for the 1938 order! Not Always the color
    for the button was taken as the correct sample.
    Last edited by Wilhelm Saris; 09-08-2014 at 05:11 PM.
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  4. #3

    Default

    First additional information to the number 266, positioned at the "Wilhelm Decker"-flag.
    This number was researched by me and as found to exist within the SA-group of Nordsee.
    It was stated in a list of appointments from fall 1933. It is obvious this flag "travelled"
    around constantly in the Nordsee-area.
    Further shown a photograph from the flag, in use during a ceremony at a moment the flag
    was not yet that much damaged. Later the netting was added and from then on the flag was
    hardly ever use during ceremonies. During the ceremony for the photograph the flag was in the
    hands of Standarte 266 as this is the upper patch and so this is a seldom occasion to see this
    "Decker"-flag flown during the possession of 266.

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    (credit: Bob Coleman, who kindly provided this photograph for showing).

    Name:  z Picture 312.jpg
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    Flag with various patches. This was in fact such a flag that had to be corrected to the 1938-
    order, but apparently never was.
    Standarte 167 was Hofgeismar at the SA-group of Hessen, which used dark-blue as their
    specific color (with silver buttons);
    Reserve Jägerstandarte 11 also was located at Hessen, but the Marburg/Lahn area
    Reserve Sturm 31 from Standarte 30, which was Bad Wildungen also within the SA-group of Hessen.
    (credit: Bob Coleman)

    For Schützenstandarten a varying color for the embroidery was introduced per July 7, 1933
    (Ch.Nr. 1350/33). This was per September 1, 1933 somewhat changed and also Jägerstandarten
    had to wear/use other colors: with darker patches the embroidery was lighter green; or with brighter
    colored patches the embroidery was darker-green.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Flag with traditions-numbers according the 1938-order:
    Standarte 3 was for Augsburg, SA-group of Hochland;
    Standarte 15 was Donauwörth, also Hochland.
    The flag was first held by Sturm 22/15, then handed over to Sturm 10/15 and
    later to Sturm 29 from Standarte 3 and 22 to finally end in the hands of Sturm
    32 from Standarte 3. The color for Hochland was light-blue, the buttons in silver
    so the embroidery in white is correct.
    (credit: Bob Coleman)

    Name:  z Picture 320.jpg
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    Flag with a steel-green patch for the SA-group of Kurpfalz. Reserve 117 was
    from Mainz, which apparently at least 60 reserve-units must have had in
    Sturm-size;
    Reserve 80 was for Landau within the same SA-group. Sturm 60 was the unit
    which held the flag as last.
    (credit: Bob Coleman)

    With a publication in the "Verordnungsblatt der Obersten SA-Führung" from May 20, 1941
    it was noted that due to unifying and to get lesser stocks the golden colored devices (except
    fornaval-SA) were to b replaced by silver colored devices. For all groups it was noted the
    color for example for the buttons had to be from white metal. The embroidery with all
    occasions had to be white, also for Schützen- and Jägerstandarten.
    It was phrased as:
    das bisherige Unterscheidungsmerkmal für Gruppen in gleicher Spiegelfarbe entfällt!
    It is not exactly known how this was carried out for flags, as no special announcements were made
    for the flags. It is for sure with old flags nothing did change, but with new ones, it could be
    possible the 1941 system had to be adopted.......
    Last edited by Wilhelm Saris; 09-09-2014 at 03:14 PM.
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  5. #4

    Default approachable for all

    This thread is approachable for all of you friends, and not only a thread to be used by me
    personally (a closed thread)!!


    So please show flags with special indications, or the use of flags with indications and names, as
    without any doubt you may have a rare flag of photo of flag use in your possession. Who knows
    we are able to analyse the ceremony or the occasion or anyway can tell from what SA-group
    or Sturm the flag was. With honor names I can give a possible date of granting or official
    publishing of the announcement.
    Last edited by Wilhelm Saris; 09-10-2014 at 11:03 PM.
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  6. #5

    Default

    Wunderbar! A poem. Where can one find such treasures in such genteel company? Thanks so much.
    damit, basta.

  7. #6

    Default

    Hi Wilhelm, excellent posting, again nice to see something different on this site. Thank you for sharing.
    Regards SK

  8. #7

    Default 1929 order and honor-name announcement

    1938 was not the first time the SA High Command complained about flags that were not correct,
    to the orders. For this reason already with the date June 28, 1929 (SABE) an order about
    how the SA-Sturmfahne was correct.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    (credit: W.Saris)

    One should note:
    a) so-called smaller units, as well as groups that were not just totally "instituted" were NOT allowed
    to use a flag patch;
    b) the swastika was horizontal and not canted;
    c) the use of golden or silver frings was allowed, but not a specific order;
    d) an older type of top was allowed, but this was to be agreed by the SA High-Command (OSAF);
    e) patches for reserve-unts (SAR-Stürme) were not in the color for the specific SA-group, but had
    to be brown. No numbers of text was allowed to be used. This was changed with a later date;
    f) the use of frills or whatever was only allowed when this was agreed by the OSAF;
    g) the flag was not to be used as a sort of decoration;
    h) not in this order, but the use of a gorget was not sanctioned. Only the bearer for the
    "Deutschland erwache-Standarte" did wear one.

    Further shown an early occasions of announcing a honor name in the "Verordnungsblatt der
    Obersten SA-Führung
    " from April 20, 1931 for the name Hans Rickmers.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	img175.jpg 
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    (credit: W. Saris)
    Last edited by Wilhelm Saris; 09-11-2014 at 12:16 PM.
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  9. #8

    Default

    Bravo. This thread shows the superiority of our site via its fine members.
    damit, basta.

  10. #9
    ?

    Default

    Excellent thread. I hope some members have some additional interesting Sturmfahnen!
    Erich

  11. #10

    Default

    Last post in October 2014. I would like to see a flag with a horn (Jagdhorn) upon a patch.
    I know they do exist.

    The use however was forbidden and surely after summer 1934. Note from the Mitteillungsblatt der RZM
    from September 1, 1934 where it is said:
    Jagdhorn ist falsch. In keinem Fall anzubringen.

    So, flags that show a patch with this Jagdhorn, surely are early flags.
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

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