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SS WWII Bugle & Banner

Article about: I have a chance to get this bugle and Banner. I have done some research on these and what I can find is the "early" ones had this ugly skull on them. The thing I am not sure of is

  1. #1

    Default SS WWII Bugle & Banner

    I have a chance to get this bugle and Banner. I have done some research on these and what I can find is the "early" ones had this ugly skull on them. The thing I am not sure of is the label.
    The ones I have seen have the silver fringe and not the gold like this one This piece looks very well made. I need opinions on this before I proceed. If it is a period piece? And what would it be worth.
    Any help would be great.

    John

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I specialize in M1 carbines and Lugers.

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  3. #2

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    This is what I had found. So far. I cannot examine it in hand. So the black light test is not possible.

    SS Trumpet Banner for the Totenkopf Verbande
    DESCRIPTION: This is a very early trumpet banner of the Death's Head Standard. It is measured at 23 x 18 Ĺ inches not counting the fringe on the three sides; this silver bullion fringe is about 2 inches long. Also there are three cloth loops at the top that are about 1 ľ inches long. These are for fastening the banner to the trumpet. The item has been black lighted and passes the tests. The piece was from the estate of PFC James D. Lund, U.S. Army 2679032 who was attached to the U.S. lst Armored Division. To see more about the Totenkopf Verbande go to our site in the Allgemeine SS section listings and go to page four and to SS 4-5. The skull on this banner is probably the ugliest I have ever seen but it must be kept in mind that in the earliest days of the NSDAP there was no issue of such things and it was pretty much go it on your own as far as such individual trappings were constructed. Much of the items like the banner would be pretty much left to the imagination of men in the units and perhaps their wives who did the sewing. The banner is certainly in keeping with the Esprit díCorp of this unit of steel hard troopers. Later trumpet banners after 1934 were rather more artistically manufactured in a more professional manner. This however is much more rare in that it is a Kampzeit item (Time of Struggle). If it isnít pretty it is strongly suggestive of power (Starke Macht!) These troops were not anyone that the Commie street hoodlums wanted to tangle with. They were tough and unrelenting.
    I specialize in M1 carbines and Lugers.

  4. #3

    Default

    The black light test is unreliable as the fakers have treated fabrics for some time with chemicals that will not glow. What must be studied is the overall construction of the piece. To begin with, if the RZM tag were authentic(which it is not), the manufacturer would have had to supply samples to receive permission to manufacture such an item. The D code is too low for a trumpet banner. The RZM tag would speak to the age of this piece being no earlier than 1933. The workmanship is quite crude. Items for the SS were always of the highest quality and workmanship. The totenkopf is frankly a joke in the design. The fringe is not what I would expect to find on a period trumpet banner. There is nothing on this banner that I would consider period. In my opinion this is of recent vintage and another product of the 4th Reich.
    BOB

    LIFE'S LOSERS NEVER LEARN FROM THE ERROR OF THEIR WAYS.

  5. #4

    Default

    Thanks Bob.
    That's what I wanted to know. I knew you guys would come through for me.

    John
    I specialize in M1 carbines and Lugers.

  6. #5

    Default

    I think Bob nailed it. Imo, this is a easy to spot fake, even without much study. Rzm tag is incorrect in several different aspects. The quality and material are, too, incorrect. And the scull is unlike anything used. As said before, run far away.

  7. #6

    Default

    The sales description of the seller leaves alot to be desired as well. "it must be kept in mind that in the earliest days of the NSDAP there was no issue of such things and it was pretty much go it on your own as far as such individual trappings were constructed" Really? Says who? Also I make note of "These troops were not anyone that the Commie street hoodlums wanted to tangle with. They were tough and unrelenting" Really? I've read plenty about the running street battles from those times and if one thing is pretty clear, it's that the 'commie street hoodlums' were more than happy to duke it out with the brown/blackshirts.

    I get the uneasy feeling the seller is quite the Nazi fan-boy.

  8. #7

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    What dealer is offering this piece of kaka for sale? He either has little knowledge or is a fraudster. In either case, it is good for the membership to know as he is to be avoided.
    BOB

    LIFE'S LOSERS NEVER LEARN FROM THE ERROR OF THEIR WAYS.

  9. #8

    Default

    Proxi bid auction for August 10th. Echoes of Glory International Military Auction House. In Virgina Beach, VA.
    The Information was obtained from germania international web site.
    I had a feeling about this piece. I have found some good stuff on proxibid, but you have to call for an inspection. Lately I have been asking my forum friends.
    thanks
    John
    I specialize in M1 carbines and Lugers.

  10. #9

    Default

    As it is said to be early, it would not have an RZM tag on it anyway and strange that all of it looks hardly worn including the stitching attaching the tag, though that is very worn and dirty.

    As Bob posted, garbage fake IMHO.
    Regards,

    Jerry

    Whatever its just an opinion.

  11. #10

    Default

    Gotta be REAL careful with auction houses, a whole lack of specialist knowledge and a whole lot of sales pitch there!

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