Leather Belts and who would have used them

[Ben Evans]

I doubt very much 45 would be the year of make, leather like this in 45 would have been like rocking horse crap the 33 would be the size

[Doppelgänger]

Thx Ben,

I see that a lot of other RZM items (on the web, and I just started looking at this stuff yesterday so I'm far from very knowledgable) are always double #'s with a slash, such as 36/52 and then a makers name so there's probably a database for these codes like the leather holster makers, etc. I'll research it a bit and see what I come up with. But yes, in '45 it would have probably been some very nice papier-mâché... ;-)

[Wilhelm Saris]

Just a short an quick answer. In post 11 I read about hundreds of organizations, as Turnerbund.
This is nonsense. The RZM was not repsonsible for that organization. The RZM was in fact only responsible
for political organizations (for that see the Organisationsbuch der NSDAP), as SA, (Allgemeine) SS, NSKK, HJ, Studentenbund,
DAF/Werkschar, Frauenschaft, political leaders from the NSDAP and some others.
The RZM had for example not to do with the RAD or NSFK and not at all with the Armed Forces, state organizations (with the exception
of the worn metal headgear eagles as these felt under the control of the RZM), OT and so on.

Who had to wear what double-claw or color belt is noted in the many uniform-regulations and indeed one can write a
book about this subject. The official wearing, but and as always the one or the other member from what organization whatever will have
used an RZM controlled belt and buckle/double-claw with an an organization where the RZM had no saying. But un-official!

[Wilhelm Saris]

Belts and double-claws:
(general and brief information only, as I do not have the time to check all my official documents and uniform-regulations):

Verordnungsblatt der Obersten SA-Führung:
Nr. 16 from December 1, 1933: instead of the SA-buckle a double-claw can be worn. Its color is as the color for the buttons;
Nr. 21 from April 29, 1934: double-claws pebbled nickeled or from messing 45.0 for enlisted ranks and 60.0 mm for leaders;
Nr. 42 from November 19, 1934: when purchasing instead of a buckle the double-claw should be bought.

Anzugs-Ordnung für die SA:
March 1, 1934 gives only global information: the belt for SA was brown; SS is black; Marine-SA is brown; Feldjäger-Korps 45.0 mm double claw in golden for enlisted ranks; 60.0 mm for leaders.

Die Uniformen der Braunhemden:
From March 1934: Pol.Leaders brown belt 60.0 mm with silver or golden double-claw according to rank; SA brown; SS black; HJ brown with buckle. Only highest rankds a double-claw (as far as I remember, but see note at the end of this).

Anzugsordnung des NSKK:
OSAF-letter from May 4, 1934 mentions brown belt. Orders as for SA;
Anzugsordnung from January 11, 1935: brown belt (as before);
Anzugsordnung from December 1, 1936: 45.0 mm black leather with silver colored double-claw. Naval NSKK golden colored double-claw. In general the double-claws are pebbeld.

Nachrichtenblatt der Deutschen Arbeitsfront:
For Werkschar: 45.0 mm black leather with buckle; 60.0 mm for leaders in silver of gold according to the color for the worn ranking insignia. Middle-class leaders often did wear a silver pebbled double-claw.

Verordnungsblatt des Reichsstudentenführers:
March 30, 1938: black belt (brown was allowed for the time being – summer 1938) with double claw in silver;
June 10, 1939 introduction buckle. Occasionally middle-class continued a double-claw, but it was not official.

Herstellungsvorschriften der Reichszeugmeisterei, 1936:
SA 45.0 mm brown enlisted; 60.0 brown leaders;
NSKK: 45.0 mm black (also worn by NSBO and DAF-wardens);
Pol.Leaders 60.0 mm brown double-claw as mentioned earlier;
DAF-Werkschar: black 45.0 mm with buckle. Higher leaders as mentioned before;
HJ: brown 45.0 mm (later this was changed in black); DJ: black 45.0 mm; BDM: blue 40.0 mm.

For more and in-depth information consult the Military Advisor – magazine:
Pol.Leaders belts and brocades, part 1: Nr. 2 from spring 1999 for;
Ibid, part 2: Nr. 1 from winter 1999/2000;
HJ belts and brocades, part 1: Nr. 1 winter 2000/2001;
Ibid, part 2: Nr. 2 spring 2001;
RAD belts and brocades: Nr. 1 from winter 2004/2005.

[Ben Evans]

Many thanks for that Wim, that is cracking information

[Wilhelm Saris]

Hello Ben,

what I did not include is that since 1935 the buckles should have of course the M4 code (earlier the KH), the double-claws merely the M5 codes (UE).

Leather belts should have the L2 code when being a leather factory (Fabrikbetriebe): for example RZM Kernstück L2/.../35 (the year of manufacturing)
or when the belts were made by hand as L4 (Sattlermeister/Handwerksbetriebe): for example RZM Kernstück L4/.../35. This goes for SA belts 45.0 and 60.0 mm;
NSKK, NSBO and DAF-Walter belts 45.0 mm; 60.0 mm for political leaders; 45.0 mm for Werkschar; 45.0 mm HJ and DJ, as well as Studentenbund. This was
meant for leather to be known as Kernstück. This is as such mentioned in the manufacturings-regulations from the RZM. Shoulder-belts should be marked likewise. One should
note that before 1935 there already existed the L-code. In 1935 they were divided as:
L1 = Lederfabriken
L2 = Lederzeugfabriken (see above)
L3 = Tornisterfabriken
L4 = Sattlermeister (see above)
L5 = Riemenfabriken
L6 = Sturmzhelmfabriken
L7 = Schuhfabriken.

For the DJ there was another possibility: it could be as DJ./Ausf.2 L2/.../35 or DJ./Ausf.2 L4/.../35. Ausf. means Ausführung of course! Ausführung 2
was leather which was described as Halsstück, which was cheaper. The belt for girls (BDM) was from the same material, but had no further indication. The indications
did not or hardly change, but during the war substitute leather was in use while real leather was hard to get!

[Doppelgänger]

60mm Black with silver buckle seems to be a bit rarer, only mentioned a couple times, SS, and;

Nr. 21 from April 29, 1934: double-claws pebbled nickeled or from messing 45.0 for enlisted ranks and 60.0 mm for leaders


I wonder how the wartime info looks in this respect?


The pistol I was looking to be pairing this with a Hi Power (usually issued to crack combat troops) was made in '44, maybe I should be looking for something else, more like this, 6th picture down.

https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/firea...olsters-13271/

[Ben Evans]

Wim

As always fantastic and clear information, I will pin this thread and re title it, everyone then has a ref for belts that comes direct from the actual regulations

Cheers

Ben

[Ben Evans]

Gents, I have stuck this thread for reference, there is cracking information here that has come direct from original documents/sources.

[Doppelgänger]

Wondering why my reply of earlier had to go through a mod in order to post, in fact it isn't there.