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Thoughts on Identifying an "Interesting" Buckle

Article about: David, I have no really good idea, if your buckle is a usual DLV/ RLB/ early Luftwaffe buckle or not. Just want to express that I like the eagles head wich is so distinct and a feast for the

  1. #21

    Default Re: Thoughts on Identifying an "Interesting" Buckle

    read it over Ben, but in short:
    All shown buckles in this thread are DLV, early Luftwaffe or Reichsluftschutzbund related,
    as the eagle looks to its left wing (the head looks to the right as seen from the viewer). There is no indication at all one of them was for a German official or for the diplomats. The eagle for officials and the diplomatic corps looks the other way around, so to its right wing, - (so to the head looks to the left as seen from the viewer). This is the buckle from the Assmann-cataloque. Only one form for both uniformed groups.

    I doubt that ever a rectangular for the diplomatic corps was made and when....then only as
    prototypes. And if one popping up the head for the eagle surely will face to its right wing and
    not to the left wing.
    In the letter from November 1942 from the foreign office it was asked, when not specifically
    needed new items should not be purchased or made.
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

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  3. #22

    Default Re: Thoughts on Identifying an "Interesting" Buckle

    Thanks Wim, I now understand what you mean

  4. #23

    Default Re: Thoughts on Identifying an "Interesting" Buckle

    Dear Kurt

    A really spectacular addition to your collection and my hearty congratulations. Yours is only the second example of this buckle, which presents a strange and very distinct design of eagle, that I have ever seen. I was however staggered to hear that Ben has one en route from the United States of America and my congratulation to Ben also.

    Dear Wilhelm

    I have never and hand on heart ever thought that this buckle was Diplomatic Corp related. The design, style and configuration of the eagle to the subject buckle is and when compared to other buckles in may I say the quite extensive collection of DLV/early Wehrmacht-Luftwaffe buckles that I hold, very odd. The oddity is striking that the easy option of regarding the subject buckle as a variant DLV/early Wehrmacht-Luftwaffe does not really sit comfortably with myself.

    A buckle reference publication which I have a very high regard for is that by Bandau. It is not perfect and like any reference work, there are the inevitable errors and mistakes. This advanced for the time publication illustrates a buckle and brocade that has rightly or wrongly, been attributed to what may be loosely described as Civil Service - Special Administration. The RIGHT facing (to viewers) and set to an angle eagles head, the eagle design in toto and the design of the laurel leaf wreath, all appear to my eyes at least to exactly match the design of the subject buckle.

    I accept that this proves little other than perhaps adding a little weight for us not to instantly dismiss the subject buckle as a DLV/early LW variant.



  5. #24

    Default Re: Thoughts on Identifying an "Interesting" Buckle

    I just mentioned what is in the regulations, no more then that!! I have not said
    that any of the shown buckles was an officials or diplomatic related item, but it
    was noted by some in posts it could be.
    The stand for the head largely is determining the difference between state and
    political (and sub-political). In 1937 the forms were finally decided by Hitler. Some
    remained and were allowed to use the old form. The DLV became the NSFK and the
    plans for the new RLB eagle were known by then. Practically most of the buckle-manufacturers
    have produced them (the form as shown in the posts). For that reason there are
    so many, many variations.

    I respect Jürgen's book as one of the best. He was a very close friend of mine and we
    have met and discussed buckles for days and days at his house at Starnberg and at
    my house in Helmond. In the seventies his buckle-knowledge was far in advance of
    most of the buckle collectors from those days. But as with most books also his books
    has errors and mistakes. It is a great loss he isn't around anymore, but one can't live
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  6. #25

    Default Re: Thoughts on Identifying an "Interesting" Buckle

    Quote by David North View Post
    I was however staggered to hear that Ben has one en route from the United States of America and my congratulation to Ben also.

    Dear Wilhelm

    David, maybe I have misled you a little there, I have a nice DLV/RLB buckle en route, not the same design as you guys, but its still a nice buckle. Also as you know I have a nice early nickel SS en route also

  7. #26

    Default Re: DLV or not DLV ?

    awesome buckle, def never seen before, but the eagle head is vaguely familiar .... any close SA eagle heads.. I will have a look through the HJ boxes.. looking forward to more info on this buckle

  8. #27

    Default Re: DLV or not DLV ?

    I open this thread with some trepredation . I cannot understand why everyone except David and I seem to insist that the buckle in question is for the DLV. The eagle design is entirely different from that of the DLV both for the EM buckle as well as the Officers buckle of the DLV which are both the same. The buckle David shows is completely different. Based on photos of DLV buckles in many books over many years this new design of David's buckle has never been photographed. If we can just get by the issue that this is some kind of DLV approved variation and try to focus on what else it could be we might get somewhere.
    If one looks at the photos in Angolia's book of the Diplomatic/Gov't officials buckles (all officers) this eagle style on David's buckle is shown quite well on p.528. The eagle w/raised head facing to the viewers right. Angolia does not differentiate what group had eagle heads facing different direction as I believe the difference between Diplo. and GO buckles was in the color of the buckle as well as the style and color of the brocade worn. Johnson however shows both Diplo and GO daggers and states the the eagle facing right is for the Diplomatic Korps. Is this buckle a Pants buckle for the Diplomats?? maybe not but it is certainly not a buckle for the DLV. That is just my opinion but I certainly think it needs some further discussion . Sorry to be so long winded on this.


  9. #28

    Default Re: Thoughts on Identifying an "Interesting" Buckle

    Dear Bill

    Many thanks for your in simpatico response and which is greatly appreciated. For the moment at least, the buckle that I originally posted and which was recently supported by the better presented twin now held by Kurt, is unidentified. Rather like yourself, I just cannot come to terms with the buckle by the most distinct design of eagle, is simply a DLV variant. If proven to be though, then so be it. I know that there are those within the collecting community who detest off the cuff subjectivity. Having said that and without the benefit of any supporting documentation whatsoever , I am sure that there may be a Civil Service association here.

    Another member within perhaps an exclusive family of buckles that whilst generally acknowledged as being period, are quite simply unidentified.



  10. #29

    Default Re: Thoughts on Identifying an "Interesting" Buckle

    Dear all

    How good to see a proper, "controversial" discussion going on here with everyone making arguments instead of simply positing unsupported statements as "fact". As I enjoy this kind of speculation as much as the next man, here's my take on this buckle, albeit unchanged from what I wrote in post # 12 back when David showed his buckle:

    Iconographically, I fail to see our specimen as being totally different from standard RLB/DLV buckles. Rather, as demonstarted by David's great photomerges, it is only the finely detailed rendition of the head, and the way it looks upwards, that puts it apart. The eagle's wings and body would not prompt a second look at all.

    Further, if we want to establish a civil servant connection, there is a real issue with the eagle looking to it's left, as Wilhelm has noted. The design of the Hoheitszeichen des Reiches (the Reich's symbol of sovereignty) was described and illustrated as an eagle looking to its right in the Verordnung über die Gestaltung des Hoheitszeichens des Reichs vom 7. März 1936, published in Reichsgesetzblatt (Teil I) 1936, p. 145-146. And "our buckle" can conceivably only be for members of the "junior" career level (einfacher Dienst, janitors etc. with a rank equivalent to military NCOs) of the German foreign office, a Reich government department. All other government departments only allowed a special Beamtenuniform to very senior people, listed by function in the 1940 Reichsgesetzblatt regulations Wilhelm has cited.

    The Beamtenuniform was a moveable feast of course and we're probably missing quite a number of regulations and amendments which were circulated in manuscript form. But with the first mention of a Koppelschloss (a term usually denoting a box buckle) for junior ranks in the 1942 regulations, besides not knowing what this buckle was supposed to look like we have the added problems of production probably having been deferred to after the war (as on the RMbO buckles) and nickle silver not being an appropriate material for buckles at the time.

    Bottom line, and although I'm now the owner of one of these buckles myself, to me it's still a variant DLV/RLB. But how I would enjoy to be proved wrong!

    Kind regards

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