whats M4??

[pitkin03]

Having just spent a good couple of hours trying to identify a belt and buckle i have, it was in the section M4 makers
M4/71 Lehmann & Wundenberg, Hannover
What i have looked for without success is what is the M4 about??
This is the belt i have, any more info about it would be great

[Adrian Stevenson]

Hi, and welcome to the forum!

What you have is a Heer (Army) buckle on a tropical webbing belt. It most likely did not start life on that belt. But both are good original items.

"M4" is the RZM designation for Political belt buckle makers.

Cheers, Ade.

[pitkin03]

thanks for the reply,
from what i have read the belt is from the african german section?? Im not sure how they might not have been together though, as i know (as well as i can know) the whole thing was taken from a german soldier during a battle in belgium (northern part) towards the end of the war

[Adrian Stevenson]

Generally speaking, this pattern of webbing belt was worn in North Africa and Italy, the Balkans, etc. Wear in NW Europe would not be impossible though given the state of German supply lines by 1944. But by this time in the war, webbing was starting to replace the usual black leather equipment.

Cheers, Ade.

[pitkin03]

thanks for the info, so basically the leather belt may have been replaced with a webbed one but the buckle kept, (possibly lol)
Are these types of buckles quite common/rare? Is there anymore info on the maker available??

With regards to M4 and non M4 makers does this effect the value of the buckle?? Are they regarded to be better if they are from an M4 maker i mean?

[Adrian Stevenson]

I would expect the leather belt to have been replaced with webbing one given the date on the buckle.

Don't worry too much about the M4 issue. Belt buckle makers would have had contracts with Nazi Party through the RZM system and buckles produced were then M4 coded. At the same time, the very same makers could have been making thousnads of buckles for the Heer and these would not bear the M4 code simply because they were not a Party item.

Cheers, Ade.

[Ben Evans]

Hi and welcome to the forum. The RZM or Reichzeugmeisterei and a regulatory agency which governed the manufacture of all political insignia, uniform and non uniform items, I think this was introduced in 1929 or around that time. When the Nazi party came to power they liked and kept this idea to ensure that "M" contracts were awarded to good "Aryan" firms. From this companies who applied and were awarded contracts were allocated No 4 so M4 then the number. Hence we have a list of 121 companies who were awarded contracts to make buckles for the Third Reich (as of yet I have still to see an example from every M4 contractor!!!) so thats why I have a list of M4 contracters. There were also other firms/metal factories who also made buckles but had no official RZM licence, hence the non M4 makers list. Some of these include leather manufacturers who bought buckles in bulk from the licenced M4 makers and attached their own maker marked tab and sold them as their own. Quite a complicated but interesting subject, type in RZM codes in google and will find lots of sites that explain the whole thing in depth. I may start a thread on this subject just for interest I cannot see your buckle at the moment as I am at work and for some reason I cannot see the pics but I will comment on it tomorrow.

[pitkin03]

to be honest i never thought it was so in depth and that there would be so many makers of the same buckle design

[bikerboyzx6r]

Hi Pitkin
Welcome to the forum - This next question is aimed at ADE so dont get offended....

Ade, I have noticed on the forum that when talking about Daggers, the fanning (see pic) on the scabbards is linked to fake Dagger & Scabbards... is this not the same on buckles? Would it not have been same process?

Cheers
Dan

[pitkin03]

interesting to know, i would very much doubt this is a fake due to the story behind it, i would be very annoyed if it was though. If any more pics are needed just say and i will get them posted up