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Possible fake signed photo in the classifieds?

Article about: Gents, This signed postcard has been flagged to me as being a fake. I have read a discussion about it on another forum where it was outed. As it is for sale here, I would like it to be discu

  1. #11

    Default Re: Possible fake signed photo in the classifieds?

    it does appear you could assume a decent surface... a table.

    still, it's just me, but i don't feel qualified to make a call on handwriting at a quality greater than a guess. and i think the potential buyer should have the opportunity, based on his own comfort level with his personal experience, to make the call either way.

    i think, however, a thread like this one is a good place for any buyer to consider all your opinions and weigh them against the strength of his own.

    perhaps i am wrong to feel this way, but the whole thing of evaluating handwriting seems infinitely more difficult than much of the manufactured, machine stamped and tooled items we must deal with.

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  3. #12

    Default Re: Possible fake signed photo in the classifieds?

    Maybe this thread will be of use?
    Best Regards,

    Looking for LDO marked EK2s and items relating to U-406.....

  4. #13

    Default Re: Possible fake signed photo in the classifieds?

    something's happened there, Adrian. i can't click on them.

    edit: got it. it works.

    - - Updated - -

    there's a history there i see that goes beyond just a signature here??

    well... alright. i find evaluating handwriting dangerous. i think people often try it too freely and without the necessary expertise. i am not saying that happens on any specific occasion... just that it does.

    but i can evaluate a pattern of controversy and in this case, it would suggest the item at hand should perhaps not be listed here.

    good signature or not, the controversy surrounding the history of the source of this and apparently other items offered in the past damages the integrity of the classifieds.

  5. #14

    Default Re: Possible fake signed photo in the classifieds?

    Well, I am a little shocked and sort of saddened that my story and this card has been the center of controversy for so long now. What can I say? All I have is my integrity. I have been involved in collecting signed memorabilia from many, many German Veterans in the Luftwaffe, the SS, the Werhmacht, you name it. I had a incredible childhood. On our visits annually back home to Germany from the states, I spent all my time with my Grandfather. He would take me to what I thought at a young age was a large picnic with plenty of other kids my age and tons of families having food and laughing. These were veteran get togethers and an occasional HIAG meeting. My Grandfather wanted me exposed to this to understand my past and to appreciate something beyond what he knew I was being taught in school. This developed over the years and as I got older, I would read and learn more and more about the hero's of Germany during WWII and if the chance happened that a certain amount of these hero's were at these meetings and picnics I would have them sign something for me. In the beginning it was crued (like having them sign a piece of paper) and then later I would find photos or old cards and I would have them sign those. My point is that I have spent a lifetime examining signatures and acquiring them. The story behind this Bleichrodt piece is the truth. You must understand that when you are a Knights Cross with Oakleaves winner and U-Boat Combat Badge in Diamonds winner and the Fuhrer himself has presented you with your Knights Cross, you become a celebrity. German propaganda used these hero's (rightfully so) in a big way to promote the war effort. So not only would the War Ministry and Propaganda Departments have someone like Bleichrodt or Molders, or Rudel, etc, sign multiple copies of photos, Hoffmann Cards, Wilrich Cards, and many more pieces that could be mailed out to fans or party members, but also the individuals themselves would have these cards on them ( Rommel was a great example of someone who had blank cards to sign for Hitler Youth or fans ) So, the notion that Bleichrodt or his aide produced a Hoffmann Card for him to sign for my Grandfather is completely normal. Especially in Garrison or back home in Germany and not in the field or near a combat zone.
    Signatures change often as Templehof explained. Rudel, Bernhard Frank, Barkmann, just to name a few have varying signatures depending on the year and for Rudel depending on if you got his signature pre 1975 stroke, or post and then pre or post his 1984 Stroke, so thats just a over simplified example of how these signatures change. The signature I have is in 1944. I dont know what year the example signatures that have been submitted were signed. Also, someone pointed out when signing on various surfaces or signing on different textures like photo paper versus card board semi-gloss like the Hoffmann or Wilrich Cards are. The type of writing instrument used to sign with is also a big variant, but the biggest variant is time. Time between when something was signed. We all have changed our signature over the years, at least I have.
    Anyway, I dont always mention this because I dont like to name drop or use other people when validating items but both Bill Shea and Tom Patton have reviewed this particular pieces along with my other high end signatures that I have collected like Rommel, Rudel, Molders, Barkhorn, etc. and they have determined that the signature is authentic. I would have paid them for an official letter of certification but I didnt see the need on this piece especially because my Grandfather himself got this signature, so at least in my mind I never thought there would be so much controversy over it.
    Like I said, I will be honest it hurts when I read what people have written. I take it way to personally and I shouldnt, but please evaluate the signature all you want. I welcome that, but please dont make reference to my Grandfather and the story he has told me behind how he got this signature. Lets keep things professional. I have been a police officer for over 20 years and fought for my country in the Army more then a few times and ones honor and integrity is sometimes all someone has left. Regarding what has been said on the other forum. I had a lot of problems there. I dont like how they do things over there, which is why I am here.
    Thanks for listening and God Bless

  6. #15

    Default Re: Possible fake signed photo in the classifieds?


    "Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."

  7. #16

    Default Re: Possible fake signed photo in the classifieds?

    well... as you said... don't take it personally.

    items can be controversial. it's the nature of the beast. and when they are, there's discussion. and that's the nature of this beast... the forum.

    whether the way you were treated over there is just, i have no idea and i do not speculate. but they seem to have attempted to ascribe a pattern to some of your sales. personally, as i have said, potential buyers and community members should be (and are) free to evaluate for themselves any item put up for sale and the chips should fall where they may. you should have no fear of the process. it's not personal. it's just business.

    as good business goes when personal feelings or offense are not at play, you could simply withdraw the item here, or you could make reference to the discussions involving it and let the potential buyers go with the strength of their own convictions with full disclosure and free discussion.

    your last paragraph suggests you might go with the latter: pointing within the ad in the classifieds to the discussion here.

    edit: ah... well... i see it has been done for you perhaps.

  8. #17

    Default Re: Possible fake signed photo in the classifieds?

    The signature looks like a 'Sharpie' or some other type of felt tip pen was used.
    When were these pens widely available ? I believe that the fountain pen was
    the norm - like the signed example photo - or standard lead pencil.

    I agree that signatures can change or evolve. This is one that looks to me
    to have been signed by someone later in life, possibly, but I am no
    expert in handwriting analysis.

    Also, a table or flat surface is what we would ideally expect to write on,
    but a postcard can also be held in hand, and the reason why
    it looks shakey or 'off'. Just my observations.........


  9. #18

    Default Re: Possible fake signed photo in the classifieds?

    Tempelhof -
    As it turns out, apparently, last night when all of this discussion was being done, a friend who has wanted this piece for a while and who I forgot about, emailed me and asked if I would sell it to him and, of course, I did. He's been a friend for years and knows this piece very well.

    I try not to take it personally..and I understand thats what the forum is for...and like I said in my defense of this piece, people should be allowed to make informed judgements about something that they feel is not correct. However, statements like...Oh it just doesnt look right, or posting other signatures of Bleichrodt without any background on that signature as to when it was signed, etc, I feel is not really helping to advance a discussion. It simply adds doubt without merit to the piece.

    Of all the signed pieces I have, this piece I would NEVER have expected this at all. For me its so clear and black and white that I thought a keen collector was for sure going to get a great Bleichrodt piece for an amazing price. Just the Hoffmann Card in of itself shows at least the authenticity of the card and even the period in which it was printed. The Hoffmann card ink changed post 1942 from a red ink to a blue ink as is in my card and was even sometimes exclusively colored for the branch of service of the person on the card.

    Oh well, I appreciate, I guess everyones opinions and I am sure the intent was to ensure the integrity of the classifieds thread.

  10. #19

    Default Re: Possible fake signed photo in the classifieds?

    of course, this is the purpose of discussion... the larger and most important goal of protecting that integrity. again, in your case specifically i do not speculate, but because the reputation of the classifieds is so important the index of suspicion as to the authenticity of any piece must be very high.

    the card itself is an obvious original (at least to my eyes) but the signature had some issues which could not be helped.

    in the end, you have found your buyer.

    to protect your integrity as a seller (and in no sense do i mean offense by this... i only attempt to offer a way to circumvent any possibility of bad feelings or disappointment in the future), you could post items for evaluation first and then take them from there to the classifieds as the response warrants. i would expect that a second benefit of this approach would be that the item would have been advertised in advance so to speak.

    i say this mindful of the level of experience you relate that you have. but in the end, it is not the experience of the seller that matters in the relationship between buyers and sellers but, rather, the collective determination of the community at large.

  11. #20

    Default Re: Possible fake signed photo in the classifieds?

    So basically Matt, you knew there was reasonable doubt over this card as pointed out on another forum where you've been banned from several times for trying to sell fake paper items. Therefore you should have offered the card and signature for discussion prior to offering it for sale with that doubt already highlighted.

    So now it seems that a friend of yours has suddenly remembered he wants the card and you've sent it to him, thus excusing you from any defence of this card and signature and seeminly absolving you of any responsibility for it here. Lucky coincidence for you!

    Now, in the TR Decorations forum, you've called a couple of items in the classifieds fake and not been able to back up your fairly loose allegations. I hope you can revisit those threads and back up what you've said after other members have now also commented. Your further thoughts on the pilots badge would be appreciated.
    Best Regards,

    Looking for LDO marked EK2s and items relating to U-406.....

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