TigerII 8.8cm L/71 APCBC V's M4A1 Sherman Turret

[CINDERSII]

This shows why it was so hard for the Sherman Tankers in open ground getting to grips with the TigerII with its 88mm L/71 main gun whilst the bocage country gave the Shemans the advantage once they had the field mod on the front the Germans then did not know exactly where the Sherman tanks would break through.

Even still it would have taken nerves of steel to be trundeling towards the Tiger II in your troop just wondering how far you would get before being shattered by an A.P round crashing in and if it did not go through completely then bouncing around inside creating carnage.
Sobering stuff.

[HoundsTooth]

Jeez that is depressing for the allies in a Sherman - the reality is that a lot of them would have met a grizzly end.
I was watching a documentary on North Africa the other day and the tank gunner said he had bailed out of his burning tank (M3 or M4 I think) 3 times. His commander had done the same 8 times and survived. Probably up against PzIII/IV or 88mm.
But if you have enough tanks you can sustain these losses.
nick

[Jb4046]

Tiger 2 was an awful tank. Sherman crews in my opinion wouldn’t have had to worry about it. The king tiger would of broke down anyway before reaching them!

Now the jagdpanther is a much better use of the long 88

[HoundsTooth]

Tiger 2 was an awful tank. Sherman crews in my opinion wouldn’t have had to worry about it. The king tiger would of broke down anyway before reaching them!
Now the jagdpanther is a much better use of the long 88

Same engine, but I take your point - reliability / lack or air support / lack of fuel / manoeuvrability - none of these help.
I think in the bocage, a lot of these were used like pill boxes - which has its advantage and disadvantages.

The Sherman's real advantage (apart form the numbers) was to out manoeuvre the Tigers etc... To paraphrase Oddball 'You need to hit them up the ass!'.

[CINDERSII]

Well Michael Wittmann certainly proved in Villers Bocage just what a group of Mk VI's can do to an armoured column and yes there was a firefly in there as well I think but decimate that column they did.
You only have to hear Pat Dias's story whom actually took Wittmann on in his Sherman and lost here is that story;

"Pat was a Sherman commander when Wittmann attacked, Pat saw Witmmans tank coming towards them so he quickly ordered his driver to reverse into a house to let Wittmann track by come out behind his tank and stove pipe him."
In Pats words "Wittmans tank went past us and we came out from our hide expecting to be able to shoot the back of the Tiger unfortunately for us Wittmann was onto us and had turned his tank around."
"So instead of the rear of a Tiger we were facing one head on at 100yds range not a very nice place to be, my gunner fired twice and the shots just bounced off, he fired once and the shot did not bounce off."
"It blew me out of the commanders hatch and killed 2 of my crew fortunately for me the Dr at the aid station at the beach was an eye specialist and saved my sight by passing a strong magnet over my eyes removing all the steel splinters."
"The Dr said if they had stayed in for 24hrs I would have been blind for life."

Even Von Rosen whom commanded the 503rd Tiger Tank Battalion said the Firefly did not worry them unduly, Otto Carius was similar in his summation of the allied tanks.
The Pershing entered to late to really see any action apart from the footage of it taking out that Panther in Cologne near the very end of the war in Europe.
Montgomery forbade the use of the word Tiger Tank the only real solution in the ETO they found worked was when they encountered the Tigers was to call in the Tiffies to rocket them.
The Thunderbolt pilots used to come in from behind firing just short of the rear of the Tiger so the ricochets bounced up underneath and into either the engine bay or the crew compartment.
The Jagdtiger was just an AT ambush weapon much like the Hetzer limited viewing outside, poor traverse on the gun making it difficult to track and shoot.
To qualify to be a Tiger gunner was very stringent if you get a copy of Tigers in Combat III its all detailed in there what all the crew had to attain and do to keep the Tiger going. (I have the other 2 vols plus another 14 books on the Tigers & Tactics.)

If I had a choice of tank on tank in open country one on one then my ar*se would be in the TigerII even with its underpowered engine it was the same in the Mk VI they both suffered but that 88mm gun just destroyed allied armour in either role.
But there were only ever 1300+ Tigers built while there were I think over 30,000 M4's made who had the better kill ratio!

[HoundsTooth]

Cool stories - a few months ago I read 'D-Day through German Eyes' - it was grim being a defender, either on the beaches or inland.
They really, really hated the Thunderbolts, Typhoons and Mosquitos (Lightning too). The rockets and incendiaries decimated the ground forced and kept coming wave after wave. Luftwaffe air cover was (almost) nil.
One on one - I agree i'd rather be in a Tiger. Given the whole picture i'm not sure - difficult to judge.
nick

[Jb4046]

YouTube


This is a new video on this topic.

I still feel indifferent about the tiger. Would rather be in a comet firing apds. Which is something the Germans couldn’t make.

Not to mention the steel germany used in 1944-45 was very bad and prone to cracking. Id reason to bet a 105mm sherman could decimate a king tiger with that.

I agree with the artillery general in the video. They should of just made artillery cannons and pak cannons instead of tigers, Or just stugs iii and panzer ivs.

In fact i would rather be in a jagdpanzer iv long 75mm . Low silhouette, good gun, good armour.

[CINDERSII]

I have Wilbecks book and if you get one and read it you will learn that the German command did stupid things with the Tigers especially on the eastern front like using it to track over Anti personnel minefields for the infantry with resultant running gear damage (All in Wilbecks book).
Also get yourself a copy of Coopers book also in my collection to see what the harsh reality it was for allied tankers facing the 88mm DP guns, panthers & Tigers it brings it home just how deficent the allied M4 was.

Most of the reasons the "Tommy Cooker" went up in flames was due to the poor ammo storage going up and not the fuel from the radial.

Here is some sobering footage of the retrevial of 2 dead French crew members from a Sherman in 1944 you will notice the penetration went through just above the gun mantlet into the turret they do not say what fired the A.P round but it did its job quiet well.
That tank as it did not burn (affects the armours tempering rendering it useless) would be recovered, hosed out, repaired, repainted then re-issued to a different crew.
If your squimish I suggest not watching it....
YouTube

[The Devil's Bank]

The sad thing above all else, is the simple fact that any tank can be knocked out, if you get close enough.

Plus every tank has it's capabilities, good and bad.

The M4 Sherman was mass produced and quite easy to repair.

The Firefly version could knock a Tiger out at distance, only too few were available.

The Tiger was over engineered, but in the right hands it was a superb weapon. It's legend lives to this day.

The HL 230 Engine, did it's job, it wasn't under powered, it was used in the wrong roles.

Distance with THAT 88mm gun was what it was made for. Distance.

But I do say this, any one who fired at a Tiger how dare you? you must repent your sins..

Look a these two chaps, clearly they are admiring a nice Tiger Tank basking in the sun.

Look at that Muzzle Brake, courtesy of the Saumur Tiger..

[Paul D]

Same engine, but I take your point - reliability / lack or air support / lack of fuel / manoeuvrability - none of these help.
I think in the bocage, a lot of these were used like pill boxes - which has its advantage and disadvantages.

The Sherman's real advantage (apart form the numbers) was to out manoeuvre the Tigers etc... To paraphrase Oddball 'You need to hit them up the ass!'.

Only one kompanie of Tigers 2 's actually fought in Normandy 1 / s Panzer Abt 503