Afrikakorps DAK, OPINIONS needed for: Tropical trousers luftwaffen, two eagles uniform, rucksack luftwaffen.

[bicho31]

These trousers to belong to the luftwaffen DAK?
Are two eagles original?
That to think of the rucksack? thanks.

[Jerry B]

The shorts might be ok for luft, but better pics are needed. I don't like the eagles, but bullion is not my thing and neither are rucksacks, or shorts, for that matter.

PS. If they don't have proof of use by the DAK, they are not DAK, but TROPICAL. I must have 50-60 tropical items and only one is a stone cold certain DAK item, all the rest are tropical. Still very good and desirable, but not DAK, which consisted of the 5th light/21st panzer division and the 15th panzer division.

Jerry

[bicho31]

The shorts might be ok for luft, but better pics are needed. I don't like the eagles, but bullion is not my thing and neither are rucksacks, or shorts, for that matter.

PS. If they don't have proof of use by the DAK, they are not DAK, but TROPICAL. I must have 50-60 tropical items and only one is a stone cold certain DAK item, all the rest are tropical. Still very good and desirable, but not DAK, which consisted of the 5th light/21st panzer division and the 15th panzer division.

Jerry

hello, thanks

[Canuck63]

Afrika Korps" is derived from the original German name properly written in one word. Strictly speaking, the term refers to the original formation which, although not dissolved, became part of the ever-expanding German and Italian presence in North Africa for its February 1941–May 1943 role in the North African Campaign. However, it is sometimes used by the news media and veteran Allied soldiers as a name for all the German units in North Africa. Some notable attached units include the 15th Panzer Division, 21st Panzer Division, Afrika zbV (zur besonderen Verwendung, "special purpose") Division, which was created as an infantry division and slowly upgraded to a fully motorized division, and then redesignated as the 90th Light Afrika Division; the 164th Light Afrika Division, the 999 Light "Afrika" Division, also the 334th Infantry division; and the Luftwaffenjäger-Brigade 1 or Fallschirmjäger-Ramcke Brigade Ramcke Parachute Brigade (named after its commander Hermann-Bernhard Ramcke). There were also eight Italian divisions (out of the 10 Italian Divisions in North Africa) under Rommel's command in Panzer Army Afrika, including two armored divisions, two motorized divisions, three infantry divisions, and the Folgore parachute division. The army was supported by a number of smaller units from both the German and Italian armed forces.

The designation "Light" (German: Leicht) did not refer to a standardized table of organization and equipment (TOE) for the various German divisions that bore that designation.

German unit organizations were based on tables of organization, (Kriegsstärkenachweisungen, or KStN). Every unit in the German Army raised had one, and all orders raising units indicated the corresponding KStN number and date which applied to them. For instance, the 5./leichte "Afrika" or 5th Light "Africa" had an organizational structure that was missing specific elements to make it a complete Panzer "Division", as did its late April to May 1941 arriving "full complement" partner division in Africa, the 15./Panzer Division. The 5./le. "Africa" Division eventually became at least partially expanded into the 21./PD or 21st Panzer Division. It was given German unit elements that were already on the ground in North Africa and some replacement equipment to meet the prescribed full Panzer Division KStN constraints (except for the Motorcycle Battalion component, which was never complete) and then renamed in August 1941. As the entire Afrikakorps organization was restructured and even renamed in August 1941, the nomenclature of Afrikakorps lasted less than six months. The famous force, with the short-lived name Afrikakorps, became a major German component of Panzer Army Africa; Panzerarmee Afrika, which evolved into the German-Italian Panzer Army (Deutsch-Italienische Panzerarmee) and then to Army Group Africa (Heeresgruppe Afrika) in the 27 months of the campaign for this force.


Additional German forces were sent to Africa and became components of the Panzer Army Africa, Panzerarmee Afrika. Examples such as the 164./le. "Africa" or 164th Light Afrika Division was at first only a partially-motorized infantry division, and actually never had any tanks at all, only armored cars and reconnaissance vehicles. Various German divisions in Africa occasionally reorganized or re-equipped without a change of name, or conversely were redesignated with a new name without any substantial reorganization. None of the German Armies actually fielded for service in North Africa completely met the service KStNs directed for their completion because of battle losses, sinkings across the Mediterranenan while in transit and the tremendous wear on the vehicles.

Herman Göring Panzer DivisionLuftwaffe Fallschirmjäger (paratroopers) from FJR3 and FJR5 of the Herman Göring Panzer Division, plus ground and mechanized forces were sent to Tunisia beginning in mid-November 1942 and through to major components into March 1943. Over 5,000 from this force were buried in the Cape Bon Peninsula, Tunisia.

Ramcke BrigadeThe Luftwaffenjäger-Brigade 1, known more commonly as the Ramcke Parachute Brigade, worked alongside the Afrika Korps after Operation Hercules (the planned invasion of Malta) was cancelled and the Brigade was subsequently re-deployed to North Africa.

[Canuck63]

After this copy/paste (I'm too lazy to thumb thru my books at the momen) please let me tell you that the Luftwaffe played a major role during the African Campaign (Febr 1941 to Jan 1943).Many units were involved in providing support for DAK units on the ground,bombing strategic targets, protecting the convoys and transporting men and equipment.All the LW forces stationed in Libya took orders from a Fliegerfuhrer "Afrika" (Generallleutnsnt Frohlich).
There were fifteen units between day,night and heavy fighter Geschwader,Eight Ground Attack Units Stuka/Schlachtgeschwader,seven bomber units,seven transport units,seven reconnaissance units,four Kustenflieger/Seenot units and seven Flak units,not counting the minor units and the two listed in the post above!
All these men fought alongside the Heer units and must be considered part of the Army that fought in Africa!
Unless they wwere stationed in Germany and occasionally moved to Africa by teletransportation!

[bicho31]

After this copy/paste (I'm too lazy to thumb thru my books at the momen) please let me tell you that the Luftwaffe played a major role during the African Campaign (Febr 1941 to Jan 1943).Many units were involved in providing support for DAK units on the ground,bombing strategic targets, protecting the convoys and transporting men and equipment.All the LW forces stationed in Libya took orders from a Fliegerfuhrer "Afrika" (Generallleutnsnt Frohlich).
There were fifteen units between day,night and heavy fighter Geschwader,Eight Ground Attack Units Stuka/Schlachtgeschwader,seven bomber units,seven transport units,seven reconnaissance units,four Kustenflieger/Seenot units and seven Flak units,not counting the minor units and the two listed in the post above!
All these men fought alongside the Heer units and must be considered part of the Army that fought in Africa!
Unless they wwere stationed in Germany and occasionally moved to Africa by teletransportation!

Thanks
you're very kind

[ObKrieger]

After this copy/paste (I'm too lazy to thumb thru my books at the momen) please let me tell you that the Luftwaffe played a major role during the African Campaign (Febr 1941 to Jan 1943).Many units were involved in providing support for DAK units on the ground,bombing strategic targets, protecting the convoys and transporting men and equipment.All the LW forces stationed in Libya took orders from a Fliegerfuhrer "Afrika" (Generallleutnsnt Frohlich).
There were fifteen units between day,night and heavy fighter Geschwader,Eight Ground Attack Units Stuka/Schlachtgeschwader,seven bomber units,seven transport units,seven reconnaissance units,four Kustenflieger/Seenot units and seven Flak units,not counting the minor units and the two listed in the post above!
All these men fought alongside the Heer units and must be considered part of the Army that fought in Africa!
Unless they wwere stationed in Germany and occasionally moved to Africa by teletransportation!

I think Jerry simply means that this pattern of uniform was also used by members of the Luftwaffe that also were not part of DAK. Therefore one cannot prove that a certain article of clothing was used within DAK unless there is some kind of evidence on it that proved its use.

[Canuck63]

I think Jerry simply means that this pattern of uniform was also used by members of the Luftwaffe that also were not part of DAK. Therefore one cannot prove that a certain article of clothing was used within DAK unless there is some kind of evidence on it that proved its use.

It sounded like he stated that (I'll qoute him as saying) "Still very good and desirable, but not DAK, which consisted of the 5th light/21st panzer division and the 15th panzer division"!
The fact that a tropical item cannot be proved as used by the DAK could also mean the opposite!
In fact he's right in a way...only if you've got proof or are reasonably sure that an item comes from North Africa then it's.."DAK"!
I own many items myself and only six have certainly seen the "Afrika Wunste",i.e. a LW kakhi tropical tunic,a Heer greatcoat with "PW" still faintly visible on its back,a pair of 2nd model Heer canvas/leather boots,a pair of LW canvas/leather boots,a water bottle,a Jerrycan and a Heer web belt on which the owner wrote the names of all the places he's fought (probably from Africa but not 100% sure).

[Jerry B]

Hi Manny,

This topic gets argued about a lot and I was stating the 'purists' version of the DAK, but I also agree that there is a grey area as to what is or is not DAK, look at the AKCT, only 2 months service was required to get it, but did this apply to all Heer units in Afrika, I don't know and I would like to get some clarrification on this. With the Afrika CT, you see these worn by SS, luft, KM as well as Heer (I have seen a pic of an SS officer wearing one), as these were for service in AFrika and not for members of the DAK only, probably one of the reasons it was introduced.

But I still think that if it was not in Afrika (unissued items from Italy etc..) it can not be called DAK. Even unissued items might be Vet bringbacks from a DAK unit and used items might also be, but without the history....

I also understand that the term DAK is very convenient to use and normally I would not correct it's incorrect usage, except in the case of unissued Luft, KM or SS items, as they very unlikely to be DAK.

I have a number of tropical items which probably are DAK, though with out the evidence, they are tropical. It would be great to say they were D.A.K.

It sounded like he stated that (I'll qoute him as saying) "Still very good and desirable, but not DAK, which consisted of the 5th light/21st panzer division and the 15th panzer division"!
The fact that a tropical item cannot be proved as used by the DAK could also mean the opposite!
In fact he's right in a way...only if you've got proof or are reasonably sure that an item comes from North Africa then it's.."DAK"!
I own many items myself and only six have certainly seen the "Afrika Wunste",i.e. a LW kakhi tropical tunic,a Heer greatcoat with "PW" still faintly visible on its back,a pair of 2nd model Heer canvas/leather boots,a pair of LW canvas/leather boots,a water bottle,a Jerrycan and a Heer web belt on which the owner wrote the names of all the places he's fought (probably from Africa but not 100% sure).

[Canuck63]

Hi Manny,

This topic gets argued about a lot and I was stating the 'purists' version of the DAK, but I also agree that there is a grey area as to what is or is not DAK, look at the AKCT, only 2 months service was required to get it, but did this apply to all Heer units in Afrika, I don't know and I would like to get some clarrification on this. With the Afrika CT, you see these worn by SS, luft, KM as well as Heer (I have seen a pic of an SS officer wearing one), as these were for service in AFrika and not for members of the DAK only, probably one of the reasons it was introduced.

But I still think that if it was not in Afrika (unissued items from Italy etc..) it can not be called DAK. Even unissued items might be Vet bringbacks from a DAK unit and used items might also be, but without the history....

I also understand that the term DAK is very convenient to use and normally I would not correct it's incorrect usage, except in the case of unissued Luft, KM or SS items, as they very unlikely to be DAK.

I have a number of tropical items which probably are DAK, though with out the evidence, they are tropical. It would be great to say they were D.A.K.

Hi Jerry,
now I start to better understand what you did mean in the first place!the term "DAK" is conveniently used to boost the value of a certain item that may be tropical for sure but not necessarily "DAK" without any proof.
Just like you I own a ton of tropical stuff of which only a negligible part has been under the African sun!
Cheers