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1st Model Railway Dagger vs. The Heer Army Dagger

Article about: Ok topic of discussion....posted below are 2 random photos I pulled off of the internet. Except for the grip both of these daggers are identical in all ways. Questions to be asked: 1. What w

  1. #11
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    Quote by Degens View Post
    A variation army dagger to me, it would not surprise me if they ALL once had a coat of white enamel paint and have always considered the daggers with the paint to grip still intact to be far more valuable than a polished black one. The majority and widely accepted maker is Klaas, but I have also held an Eickhorn and Horster that looked pretty convincing.
    Gimme a nice marked Klass, bearing Generic B fittings with a matching scabbard ( asterisk bands ) and a full coat of thick cream period paint over a black grip...........fifty bucks says you wont!. Too many people with dremels and a bucket of acetone.
    I've recently purchased one! Does this mean I have earned myself fifty bucks?
    All kidding aside. I did purchase a Klaas with the original white paint recently and was offered a completely black gripped Klaas too. When doing some research I came across this thread. The white painted one will be in our new army book by the way

    Best
    Danny

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  3. #12

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    Larry very good topic, Which does raises a lot of questions. I have taking the liberty of taken a few photo's of mine dagger and also side by side comparison photo of grip for length comparison.... Also a close up of the 1st model railways dagger grip with a chip with no evidence of white paint.
    I have seen grips that have evidence of white paint also though.
    As for length both Army and Railway daggers are 40cm or 15.8" in length.

    I myself cannot say if these are actual 1st model railway daggers, but they did produce a Railway leaders daggers in 1938 because the lack of distinction between model 1935 and the standard heer model.
    The Third Reich pretty well made daggers for every department.
    Just some thoughts.

    Mario

  4. #13

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    As mentioned before I have no or hardly any dagger knowledge, but know something about regulation.

    In the official periodical for the Deutsche Reichsbahn (Amtliches Nachrichtenblatt der DRB) from 16-23 April 1941 it is said:
    introduction for a dagger (Einführung eines Dolches) for Reichsbahn-officials with the pay-groups 8 - 7a (Obersekretär) and upwards.
    In earlier Reichsbahn regulations I cannot find any dagger. Don't see it mentioned. The drawing from the dagger in the publication
    from 1941 shows a sunwheel swastika on top (like the early airforce type) and the cross-guard of a winged railroad-wheel.

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    The dagger in post 5 is not railway, but Bahnschutzpolizei. Until about 1938 only swords an bayonets (with a knot)
    were worn. A dagger came into being merely in 1939 (shown post 5) with a black grip. No much wearing photographs
    of daggers are known. Here a close-up (with black grip). Details are not visible!! Can't reveal the full photo as it is planned
    for a future book. In earlier Bahnschutz-regulations no daggers were mentioned.

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    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

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    Hi Wim Great information which the forum is fortunate for your knowledge ..

    in your photo provided of the officer below

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    Shows great similarities compared to drawing provided. This photo adds a twist into this thread. It appears this may be the only source photo as an actual " Period In wear " photo.

    Interesting..thankyou for your insight Wim.

    Regards Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  6. #15

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    The Bahnschutz-leader's dagger is in Eickhorn with article-number 1725.
    The same page show a leaders Reichsbahn-Wasserschutzpolizei dagger with article-number 1745.

    I have NOT EVER seen Reichsbahn-Wasserschutzpolizei dealt with with any Reichsbahn-
    regulation. I wonder where they got this expression from. So do not ask me..... I wonder if any
    Reichsbahn-expert can. I doubt this sincerely!!
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  7. #16

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    Possible photo opportunity to model the uniform in wear with an added dagger...yet the information is still quite profound..and should not be ignored as far as the the existence of the dagger is concerned.

    A further study will ensue with our advanced Railway dagger collectors. I would consider this another found piece of the overall Third Reich Puzzle.
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  8. #17

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    Quote by Larry C View Post
    Possible photo opportunity to model the uniform in wear with an added dagger...yet the information is still quite profound..and should not be ignored as far as the the existence of the dagger is concerned.

    A further study will ensue with our advanced Railway dagger collectors. I would consider this another found piece of the overall Third Reich Puzzle.
    Before 1941 there were no Reichsbahn-daggers mentioned; before 1938/1939 there were no Bahnschutz-daggers mentioned in any regulations.
    I have asked myself for 30-40 years where the authors from books about that subject have found such related information. Wouldn't I have
    come across such information?

    Just a part of my about 400 files from my uniform-regulation collection. Just copies as I do not need originals to read what it's all about!

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    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  9. #18

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    The only credibility which I will aim this statement towards the dagger collectors is seen in this photo..show the black grip being some what longer than the standard yellow Heer. It would be beneficial to see..the differences in tang length measured.

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    Another question would be were all Heer tangs within the same specs in length?

    Clearly a difference is seen above in the 2 grips.

    Regards Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  10. #19

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    I have seen neither period documentation nor in wear photographs of the "1st model Bahnschutz dagger". Back in the dark ages of the 1950's collectors called these "Engineer Officer daggers", the black grip matching the uniform waffenfarbe. Later we were educated, these black grip army dirks became the 1st model Bahnschutz.
    The preferred model is by Klass, the longer grip supposedly denoting Bahnschutz. Here is a Klass army with typical grip and that still retains much of its factory applied white paint.

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    I do not mean to rain on anyones parade here; if you believe in them thats fine - and they command a high price in the market place!

    I am not a believer until shown a credible primary source in support.

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    Larry: I took a few quick pictures showing the difference between the two in the tangs length wise.

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