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1st Model Railway Dagger vs. The Heer Army Dagger

Article about: Ok topic of discussion....posted below are 2 random photos I pulled off of the internet. Except for the grip both of these daggers are identical in all ways. Questions to be asked: 1. What w

  1. #31

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    With the above scenario we have two different makers, with at one end of the scale a large blade producer since Imperial times. And the other (Klass) a smaller one getting a subcontract from Eickhorn for some tool kits, and possibly ammunition components after dress blade production was terminated. Neither made plastics, with Eickhorn subcontracting for the molded black Bakelite plastic types of military service bayonet grips to third parties - as all of the 20 or so makers did. And if you look at the bayonet grips from Eickhorn they switched from wood to plastic, to wood again, and then back to plastics (a wartime substitute version). With other makers making changes back and forth or not on their own that with dates is trackable. With the key not with the end users in Solingen who made zero plastics. But with what was happening upstream with the actual plastics makers who periodically had problems getting the necessary supplies - which as a group is why the cast resin grips such as Trolon from the Nobel company disappeared. So that when an affected Solingen maker ran out of the pre-manufactured rods, they had to use substitutes to stay in business. Also having seen no arguments so far that realistically call into question the verifiable period information from Wilhelm. Best Regards, Fred

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  3. #32

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    One major dealer, Tom Wittmann, considers the !st model Railway appellation applied by collectors to the black gripped Klass armies as conjecture and speculation. Tom makes this clear in his sales descriptions. However, he lists them under the inventory heading of Railway Daggers and they presently carry a $3k+ price tag on his site.

  4. #33
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    I am not convinced that the black grip army dagger is a 1st model Railway dagger. But I also am not sure if all black gripped armies were once white. Klaas did paint there grips but was every black grip on a Klaas once white? I also have never seen a painted white grip on a Eickhorn. So the question is, is there evidence that army officers ever wore black gripped daggers? Here are the two types of black grips (First two Eickhorn and last two Klaas). It is clear that the shape of the grips is different. Also the materials used seem to be different. I am curious if anyone has seen a white painted grip on a Eickhorn army. I also would like to see a picture of a black gripped army dagger in wear by an army officer.

    Danny
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  5. #34

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    Quote by Gastvrijheid View Post
    One major dealer, Tom Wittmann, considers the !st model Railway appellation applied by collectors to the black gripped Klass armies as conjecture and speculation. Tom makes this clear in his sales descriptions. However, he lists them under the inventory heading of Railway Daggers and they presently carry a $3k+ price tag on his site.
    Possibly for some of the "variant" collectors (?), that's an interesting piece of information to add to the discussion. Wondering aloud what he uses to describe the companion piece so-called "Luftwaffe Funeral Daggers" ? Best Regards, Fred

  6. #35

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    IMO dealers had parts of Army daggers with longer tangs and longer black grips. So they put them together and called them railway daggers. Simple. And now dealers and collectors cannot retract all this or they will lose money.

  7. #36

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    Quote by bluemax View Post
    IMO dealers had parts of Army daggers with longer tangs and longer black grips. So they put them together and called them railway daggers. Simple. And now dealers and collectors cannot retract all this or they will lose money.
    Well said BlueMax ...and its a matter of hard fact that these studies before us ..that Collectors " CAN " change the game up...by not allowing put togethers to exist..by those who may partake in such practices. Pointing no fingers...they know who they are..although many are on the fence with this topic...yet..what good does come out of his thread and gained.......is the awareness that was never there before.

    This thread is not about " Doubt " ..but digging deeper into hard rock ...which within these last few days since the original dated existence of this thread...much more has been shared and revealed by the dedicated of Teachers and collectors. Great Thread Gents Regards Larry

    The Rock does have a core !
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  8. #37

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    Here is another thought the second model Railway leaders dagger grip is Black, And I never seen another color than black on this model...... And the grip is the same on the First model. Just funny how the color and grip are the same.
    Something to think about.

    Mario

  9. #38

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    Ok ..Here is a survey Gents..... what happened
    about the first mention, the actual introduction for a railway-dagger
    (NOT Bahnschutz) and when it was said the dagger no longer had to
    be worn? It is just a period of two and a half months in 1941. If I have misunderstood Mr Saris Direction with this question..I extend my apologies

    Regards Larry
    Last edited by Larry C; 09-11-2015 at 11:13 AM.
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  10. #39
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    Johnson volume VIII, page 111, shows and describes the 1st model railroad dagger, which was property of the German Bahnschutz official that wore it. I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this up until now. It also goes into detail of the 3 different edged weapons that he carried during his career with this organization.

  11. #40

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    Something that I’ve wondered about as to why it’s not another factor in these occasional discussions involving the black gripped Army type of daggers is this: The (so-called) 1st Model example in post # 33 looks look like it has a zinc crossguard. But the (so-called) 2nd Model uses cast aluminum parts. So when the Germans had to stop using copper in manufacturing dagger/sword fittings did they choose zinc as a substitute material first? Or was it their last choice? Please explain why it's reversed. Best Regards, Fred

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