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1st Model Railway Dagger vs. The Heer Army Dagger

Article about: Ok topic of discussion....posted below are 2 random photos I pulled off of the internet. Except for the grip both of these daggers are identical in all ways. Questions to be asked: 1. What w

  1. #71

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    Quote by JRMeda View Post
    Fred, See Mario's post on page 2 of this topic. He shows the longer blade tang, and longer black grip associated with his example of a Klaas edged weapon. How can this be accounted for, when 40 other manufactures all produced standard lengths components?
    JR, Maybe I just need to rephrase my previous response to your question. There is and was no argument from me that the black handled Army daggers by Klaas have longer tangs and handles. With my question to you again being: In your view/opinion do the longer handles/tangs also include the black handles that were painted white, or that still have traces of white paint? With the answer to that being the baseline for future discussion. Regards, Fred

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  3. #72
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    I have no idea Fred, as I've not examined any of the partial white painted grips. My question was why 40 edged weapon manufactures would make blades and grips for their Heer daggers all the same size, and only one, deviate from the norm?

  4. #73

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    Quote by JRMeda View Post
    I have no idea Fred, as I've not examined any of the partial white painted grips. My question was why 40 edged weapon manufactures would make blades and grips for their Heer daggers all the same size, and only one, deviate from the norm?
    That was my question from a while back on this thread..and Im also curious of the length of the tang. Best Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  5. #74

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    I don’t have specific period internal information as to the inner workings of Klaas during the TR era with the historical record showing a relatively limited offering of blades as compared to some of the much larger more diverse makers. As a 19th century maker specializing in small items like pen knives and scissors (razors added circa 1920) it’s not recorded as being a maker of swords, daggers or bayonets either before or during WW I. Even during the periods when Germany was at war, there was money to be made, and the country really needed them. With its only known Government or Army/Wehrmacht blade contract one for the limited production of a small stamped tool kit-knife circa 1942 as a component for the Eickhorn SG 42. After 1945 reverting to its core business model of making pocket knives.

    Maybe some Klaas uber-Spezialist will contradict the preceding information which is fine me because what really matters are the provable facts. So absent any period internal evidence from Klaas what are some of the possibilities?

    1) Klaas was still in an expansion mode and acquired new tools and tooling that were slightly different, but that had no significant impact on the outward appearance of the Army daggers that may have given them the flexibility for other things down the road.

    2) It suffered some kind of a breakdown with existing tooling, and all they could find for an immediate substitute was the one seen used in conjunction with the white/black (core) grips.

    3) Did they make all of their own blade blanks, or did they for whatever reason use nonconventional subcontracted parts from whatever supplier they could find (like they did with the black grips themselves)?

    4) The extra long handles were to allow selected Officers admittance to an exclusive Officer’s Club. The handle was inserted into a slot next to the door - and if it wasn’t long enough NO ADMITTANCE! Best Regards, Fred
    Last edited by Larry C; 09-19-2015 at 10:30 PM.

  6. #75

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    Sorry Guys - I just couldn’t pass up adding a little humor to the discussion. Fred

  7. #76
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    Fred, Are you aware that Klaas was not a manufacturing firm, but a company that elected to purchase parts from other edged weapon outlets, then finish them in-house, finally assembling the same?

  8. #77

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    Quote by JRMeda View Post
    Fred, Are you aware that Klaas was not a manufacturing firm, but a company that elected to purchase parts from other edged weapon outlets, then finish them in-house, finally assembling the same?
    Wow The plot thickens ...and which I can believe JR that there were "assembly firms " ..as was the same Company Bertram Reinh. Ironically Klaas..acquired Bertam Reinh..in 2002. Awesome!!

    Regards Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  9. #78

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    Quote by JRMeda View Post
    Fred, Are you aware that Klaas was not a manufacturing firm, but a company that elected to purchase parts from other edged weapon outlets, then finish them in-house, finally assembling the same?
    JR, As I stated in post # 74 I’m not a Klaas specialist. With as a general experience, and some other things thrown in subcontracting in manufacturing not new to me. Nor was it unknown to me as originally starting my collecting with guns. Having no argument that there was a fair amount of parts swapping-subcontracting going on here and there in Solingen and elsewhere, which is seen in some of the period dagger factory invoices, with marked components etc. (Not that it was something new to Solingen because it had been ongoing from a much earlier time when work had been subdivided into guilds.)

    With the black grips of the alleged (so-called) 1st Model Railway dagger a primary focus of the discussion that was already covered as being the work of a plastics manufacturer. With the finishing left open to several possibilities. So are you definitively stating that they were finished “in house” by Klaas? (That would have been a good place to start IMO to help everyone understand the period provable specific facts of the matter for Klaas.)

    As for not being a manufacturing firm... So Eickhorn, a major maker, permitted a non-manufacturer to make some bayonet small knife-tool kits for it? Having Klaas markings on the knife-tool kits, not Eickhorn’s? With the German Army, which unquestionably assigned a code for Klaas that’s in its Liste der Fertigungskennzeichen (Manufacturer’s Markings List). So somebody else made all of the parts for the bayonet knife-tool kits and Klaas was just an assembler? Is there proof of that? Because I think it would certainly be interesting to the Eickhorn collectors.

    With Larry’s comment that Klaas outlived Bertram acquiring assets also in the historical record, after it (Bertram) went bankrupt which may have been earlier. Klaas publishing a 150 year anniversary pamphlet in 1984. Regards, Fred

  10. #79
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    Seems as though the debate on these black handle edged weapons will still continue with collectors on both sides of the discussion. Although there is one thing that we know for sure on these daggers....................... there isn't anybody that sells one of these for $450, as an Army dagger with a black grip.

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