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1st Model Railway Dagger vs. The Heer Army Dagger

Article about: Ok topic of discussion....posted below are 2 random photos I pulled off of the internet. Except for the grip both of these daggers are identical in all ways. Questions to be asked: 1. What w

  1. #1

    Default 1st Model Railway Dagger vs. The Heer Army Dagger

    Ok topic of discussion....posted below are 2 random photos I pulled off of the internet. Except for the grip both of these daggers are identical in all ways. Questions to be asked:

    1. What were the reasons why the 1st model railway chose to imitate its Heer counterpart?

    2. What were the dates of when the Heer and 1st Railway introduced?

    3. The dagger parts are the same...but why was the Railway almost 6 times more expensive?

    4. Was the Third Reich really that hard up to use Heer parts...........or was it vice versa?

    5. What producers are there of the 1st Railway?

    I see no differences between the 2 except for the grip...I would like to hear from the Heer collectors...( Pardon the pun ) ....and those who collect the 1st Model railway. I welcome all comments and photos. Regards Larry
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

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  3. #2

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    I think that the whole thing about black grips and 1st model railway daggers is a bit of a myth. There were certainly makers who used black grips and painted them white, Klaas being notable in using this method. After time paint can become chipped, and who's to say that the army officer owner didn't remove the paint to tidy it up rather than repaint it? Who's to say some didn't leave the factory with the grip unpainted? What of the so called 'funeral daggers' with black grips? What if the handle was stripped of paint by the veteran who took it home as a war trophy, much like Lugers, PPK's and Mauser's were chromed when back in the States?

    I think personally that this is as likely as anything, and the '1st pattern railway' dagger is a misnomer. It sure is a good way to hump up the price of an otherwise mundane dagger. I'm all ears to what others think.
    'I do not think we can hope for any better thing now.
    We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course, and the end cannot be far.
    It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. R. SCOTT.
    Last Entry - For God's sake look after our people.'

    In memory of Capt. Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans. South Pole Expedition, 30th March 1912.

  4. #3

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    Larry, some, (and I am one of these) do not believe that the first model Railway Protection dagger ever existed. I do not know of any period evidence of this dagger ever existing. The black handled Heer daggers are often found with white paint, or at least traces thereof remaining. I believe the painted black handles were simply installed to use up existing stock, Who knows why the black grips were ever made. Klaas seems to be the maker most accepted by those who believe in this dagger. The black grip on the Klaas examples is slightly longer than the standard grips. Other makers did use black grips as well. Attached is a photo of an Eickhorn. It is of course only my opinion, but I feel the 1st model Railway Protection theory was invented to maximize profit on these daggers. Unfortunately this has resulted in many of the grips being stripped of the white paint.
    If anyone does have any evidence that these daggers are in fact a first model Railway protection, I would love to see it.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  5. #4

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    I've personally never seen or owned a 1st Model railway. As for the black gripped Heer, I've always considered them a Heer with a black grip, is all.
    William

    "Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."

  6. #5

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    Any period "in wear photos" would be a great help. Below is a pic of a 2nd model Railway. ( GDC Photo )
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  7. #6
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    A variation army dagger to me, it would not surprise me if they ALL once had a coat of white enamel paint and have always considered the daggers with the paint to grip still intact to be far more valuable than a polished black one. The majority and widely accepted maker is Klaas, but I have also held an Eickhorn and Horster that looked pretty convincing.
    Gimme a nice marked Klass, bearing Generic B fittings with a matching scabbard ( asterisk bands ) and a full coat of thick cream period paint over a black grip...........fifty bucks says you wont!. Too many people with dremels and a bucket of acetone.

  8. #7

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    Quote by wolfeknives View Post
    Larry, some, (and I am one of these) do not believe that the first model Railway Protection dagger ever existed. I do not know of any period evidence of this dagger ever existing. The black handled Heer daggers are often found with white paint, or at least traces thereof remaining. I believe the painted black handles were simply installed to use up existing stock, Who knows why the black grips were ever made. Klaas seems to be the maker most accepted by those who believe in this dagger. The black grip on the Klaas examples is slightly longer than the standard grips. Other makers did use black grips as well. Attached is a photo of an Eickhorn. It is of course only my opinion, but I feel the 1st model Railway Protection theory was invented to maximize profit on these daggers. Unfortunately this has resulted in many of the grips being stripped of the white paint.
    If anyone does have any evidence that these daggers are in fact a first model Railway protection, I would love to see it.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I'm in 100% agreement. Fred

  9. #8

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    Interesting thread Larry. All very true, the only thing is there is a bit of a gap there in history as the 'official' bahnschutz didn't come out until late 1938. So what was in use before this date?

  10. #9

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    What is the length of a Black gripped 1st Model railway dagger compared to a standard Heer grip?
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  11. #10

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    I am not into dagger-knowledge, but have not found a dagger in uniform-regulations for the
    Bahnschutz until early 1939 when the dagger-knot was shown in the magazine "Schwert und Spaten"
    (issue nr. 2 from February 1939, page 20. Available were: Säbelportepee, Dolchportepee and
    Seitengewehrportepee). No images for the saber, dagger or bayonet were included in the publication.
    Before that date no magazine mentions the existance of a dagger for the Bahnschutz, anyway as
    far as I know about.

    The bayonet was in use most often. In late 1933 it was actually said: sind neu nicht mehr vorzusehen,
    soweit noch vorhanden, sind sie aufzutragen
    ). The use of the bayonet went into the late 1930's as
    there then exist a portepee in 1939 and later. Leading ranks were ordered for the officer's pattern, short bayonet
    (order October 1933: kleines Offiziersseitengewehr).

    In a note from June 1936 the only "weapon" mentioned was the bayonet, to be worn by enlisted ranks with the
    Troddel, higher ranks the Portepee. No dagger was mentioned at all! (UM, nr.9 from June 16, 1936, page 138).

    The first showing of a dagger was in 1941 in tailor-magazines, as for example "Uniformen-Markt",
    number 8 from April 15, 1941. Page 74. As what was shown in early 1939 also here was included.
    The shown dagger was the version, which in general is known as the 2nd. pattern.
    When one looks in cataloques for dagger and saber-manufacturer's there are not much of them that actually
    do show the Bahnschutz-dagger. Eickhorn does with article-number 1725: dagger according to
    regulations for Bahnschutz-Führer. Again this is the dagger which commnly is the so-called 2nd pattern
    dagger. With article-number 1745 they do show a dagger what they call as Reichsbahn-Wasserschutzpolizei.
    In regulations I have not ever found an indication for this dagger. But it was sold, so it must have existed! This
    dagger shows a sort of army eagle, the top has the same form as the regular leaders-dagger.

    I would like to see a pre-1945 announcement or publication for what is said to be the 1st pattern dagger. Please do
    include the related text-part so it is definitivily stated, and so all rumours can end!!
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

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