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British MkIII Turtle pattern helmet

Article about: Hello Ade, Here's a post war Turtle given to me by a friend who found it in a garage. Mk IV 1954, manufactured by CCL. Do you know who CCL were? Cheers, Guy.

  1. #161

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    Quote by canti44 View Post
    How much is he asking?
    140...


  2. #162

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    I'm copying this over from the World Steel helmets section where I first posted it, as it may get some response from Mk3 enthusiasts here (I apologise in advance if it contravenes any Warrelics regulation I don't know about) -

    We're talking about the British Mk 3 and Mk 4 helmet shells. There are two points. It turns out there's some degree of uncertainty as to the actual production years of these helmets, especially as to when they ceased production. Also, there is a theory, propounded by the estimable Roger Lucy, that Knowledge can be obtained from examining the batch codes stamped inside most (but not all) of these helmet shells.

    Popular understanding has it that the Mk3 (that's the one with the bolt-in liner and the high-set chinstrap lugs) came into production in 1944, with the revised version, the Mk 4 (lift-the-dot liner, lower set chinstrap lugs) in 1945 (contract awarded December '44).

    It isn't clear when production of the Mk3 ceased, though it would be reasonable to believe it would have been at the time Mk4 production was started. It is said - Cotton, MILITARIA MAGAZINE article 1995 - that 1-million+ Mk4 helmets were ordered in December 1944 - but Cotton himself later implied that few were actually produced soon after. It is thought - perhaps wrongly - that there were two bursts of production, one immediately at the end of WW2 and the other during the Korean crisis of the early 50s.

    Given the present lack of the promised book by M Cotton which will make everything clear, the best we can do is try, by looking at the actual shells, to establish a fair idea of the period(s) of production. It is generally believed, for example, that there are *no* shells dated after 1953. Is that true?
    So the task is simple but difficult. Just examine the shells of your Mk3 and Mk4 (which includes the notional Mk5 which is after all only an old Mk 4 shell with a different liner and a fresh coat of paint).

    The difficult part is that the manufacturers stampings can be hard to locate, hard to read, and maybe not even there in the first place. And may have been totally obscured by many coats of paint. Look under the front brim, or around the chinstrap lugs. Stampings can be aligned either horizontally or vertically. There's no pattern or sense to it.

    What you will be looking for is a grouping of letters and digits that will probably (not always) comprise something like this -

    RO&CO CA 1952 4

    but *not * in a line like that. That information is the manufacturer (RO&CO, or BMB), a batch code, the date, and the mark of helmet (this could be 3 or 4, or III or IV).

    These stamps are often very lightly struck and will be difficult to read - use a bright light angled against the metal to bring out the lines. Even if you cannot make out all the characters just the maker and date will be good.

    The more I (and Roger) have looked into this the more we realise the published information is inadequate and that the more we find out the less we know. This is useful research, please help.

    This is what I have been able to read from part of my collection (some unreadable, some inaccessible at the moment) -

    Mk3

    RO&CO DO 1944 III

    BMB A6 (could be 3) III (no date - really no date it seems, not even a faint image)

    Mk4

    RO&CO FS 1945 4
    RO&CO FS 1945 4
    RO&CO FF 1945 4

    RO&CO DI 1952 4
    RO&CO CA 1952 II (that's really what is there!)
    RO&CO MA AD 1953 4

    BMB C791 (date unreadable) 4

    On the basis of this sample it does seem to reinforce the idea that there *was* indeed a substantial batch produced immediately after the Mk4 contract was awarded. And the Korean War crisis run seems to be reflected also. And is it really true that no shells were pressed after 1953?

    (NB If you feel posting details here would be uninteresting please send what you can in a PM)

  3. #163
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    Greg,

    Here are my Mks III to V legible stamps

    Mk.III
    RO&CO CF III 1944
    RO&CO DX III 1945
    Mk.IV or V
    BMB 1945 D96 MKIII
    BMB 1945 E67 MK4
    BMB MK IVC26 1951
    BMB MK IV C41 1951
    BMB MK IV C98 1952
    BMB MK IV C213 1952
    RO.CO EF 4 1952
    RO.CO O 4 1953

    Roger

  4. #164

    Default Mk III shown in US Intelligence Document January 1943

    Although a report on the US M1 Helmet the illustration shows an outline of the "New British" helmet shown in January 1943.

    Interesting report anyway.
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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