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just a zuckerman

Article about: Hi mates, here is a PSC example from 41, got it from my grandfather when I was a kid. Any Ideas what the "L" stands for? Cheers! Mads

  1. #21

    Default Re: just a zuckerman

    Iíve been a long time closet Zuckerman fancier, to be honest I was more interetsed in what was painted on the front so I will check what I have later tonight in terms of helmet.

    Going back to the labels at the start of this thread, this is pure speculation on my part, Dyson & Horsfall were a pottery company (explains the 'Do not drop' on the label), bearing in mind that most war manufacturing contracts were an extension of the existing capabilities of companies, helmet shell and liners would be quite a departure, aside from assembly, could Dyson & Horsfall have been the company that painted to markings on the front?, they would have the skill set for that, and it would also require distribution to specific offices.
    I would think they are more likely to be distribution offices than addressed to individuals, I had one with a different label which was addressed to the 'Fire Chief, City of St Albans'.


  2. #22

    Default Re: just a zuckerman

    Thanks James. I liked it to. I picked it up saw the issue label, I had never saw one before with a label, then asked how much and that sealed the deal when the guy said a fiver. Cant even buy my kid a toy helmet for that!
    I never even noticed that other types can be rimless and that there are other variations until tonight. Greg and Tinlid are correct these can be interesting.
    Now donít you guys go bidding against each other for that 1940 one!
    Steve that is a possible theory you have their, my one at the start of this thread looks like it has been painted by free hand and not with a stencil though. If I can find out if the clerks initials were WJ at that time that might let us know if he did issue it to someone else (thats if there was only one clerk)

  3. #23
    NCA is offline

    Default Re: just a zuckerman

    Quote by tinlid View Post
    What was I saying about the shells only being made in 41, well this one has just come on ebay & b******* me it's dated 1940.
    Got a link?I cant find it?

  4. #24

    Default Re: just a zuckerman

    It must have been buy it now as it has finished

  5. #25

    Default Re: just a zuckerman

    I cannot tell a lie. It was me wot dun it. I actually saw the eBay listing for the apparent 1940-dated Zuckerman before it was mentioned here. I'd bought it instantly (it was indeed a Buy-It-Now) as a 1940 is definately unusual.

    The eBay picture did not lie. It is an AMC product, dated 12 over 1940 (and that's definately a 0 as the last digit, not a malformed 1).

    I assume that this means it was made in December 1940, and unless told otherwise I would further assume it must be one of the first ever made. Yes, no, maybe.

    Another interesting thing, which is different from all the other Zucks I have, is that the 'M' for medium size mark is impressed into the metal from the upper side, rather than the underside as with all others I have. The makers mark and date is impressed from the underside as is usual.

    Its an upturned rim, with 'short closed' chinstrap lugs, which are spotwelded on in two distinct small touches per lug, as opposed to the one large quick&dirty squish I am more familiar with.

    No markings that I can make out on the liner. Nothing visible on the outside, but I am reluctant to try turning the headband as it appears stuck, either by design or age, who can tell.

  6. #26

    Default Re: just a zuckerman

    great stuff greg and very honest of you ,ive probably said this before but your a great asset to this forum i can learn a great deal thanks james

  7. #27

    Default Re: just a zuckerman

    Well done Greg at lest someone on here got it.

  8. #28

    Default Re: just a zuckerman

    Well done Greg, I've seen loads of 41 dated Zuck's & never a 1940 so they only must have just started production at the end of 40. Here's what I think is a 1942 dated liner but not 100% sure as it's quite worn, on the look out for a better picture of one & maybe out there somewhere a 1942 dated shell. Probably not but fun trying to find it.
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture just a zuckerman   just a zuckerman  

  9. #29

    Default Re: just a zuckerman

    Came across this liner in my bits box this afternoon. Nicely named to a lady and maker marked.

    Cheers, Ade.
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture just a zuckerman   just a zuckerman  

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  10. #30

    Default Re: just a zuckerman

    Right, here's the backstory; a couple of weeks ago eBay item 200823824074 caught my eye. A pleasing but not especially remarkable 'Zuckerman' helmet, nothing wonderful about it except the signal and startling fact that being sold with it was the original instruction sheet for use and fitting as supplied with these helmets back in the day. In the event I was outbid for it (I do try to keep a balance of money and sense...) but fortunately the seller's pictures were so complete and clear that it was easy enough to transcribe the leaflet from them. And I reproduce it below, though in this instance without the two little drawings refered to as Figures 1 and 2.

    What's exciting about this is that we are now clear once and for all that there are only two sizes, Large and Medium (call off the search for Small) and that no chinstraps were issued, no matter what might sometimes seem the case. Also, using the searchterm 'Civilian Protective Helmet' (the real name of this fascinating object, of course) led me to an archival webpage - Cityark - Search Results (Result 1411) - which indicates that the first notifications of this helmet were sent out in December 1940, so the two 12/1940 examples I have were therefore, I reasonably assume, the absolute first batch. Text of leaflet follows -




    The Civilian Protective Helmet is issued unassembled in three parts - body, lining, and lace.

    The steel body is in two sizes and the liner is in six sizes - ie three sizes to each size of body, as follows -

    The medium body (stamped M) takes linings of 6andahalf, 6andthreequarters and 7.

    The large body (stamped L) takes linings of 7andaquarter, 7andahalf, and 7andthreequarters.

    Fig 1 shows the general shape of the helmet. Although the body is symmetrical in shape the line of lacing holes is sloped so that when the lining is asssembled to the body the helmet has a front and a back. The back comes down lower to protect the back of the head.

    The letters L and M stamped under the rim at the back indicates the size of the helmet body.

    How to assemble the Helmet.

    (i) Take a lining of the required size and a body of the size to fit the lining - see above. (NB - It is essential that the right size of body be used with each lining size.) It does not matter which part of the lining becomes the front or back; but it is usual to assemble it so that the join in the headband is at the back.

    (ii) There are eight pairs of lacing holes in the steel body, corresponding with the eight loops on the lining (A 'pair' of holes means two holes close together - about 1 inch apart. There is a space of about 2 inches between two pairs.) A loop should be placed behind and between the two holes which form one pair, and the lace threaded alternately through the lacing holes in the body and the loops on the lining as show in Fig. 2.

    When the lacing is finished lace should be visible outside the body of the helmet between each pair of holes, and should be invisible between the two holes which form a pair (see Fig. 1).

    (iii) When the lacing has been completed, draw the lace tight and tie it firmly in a bow. It will be most satisfactory to form the tie inside the helmet (ie alongside one of the loops in the lining) and at the back, where loose ends can be tucked away, and not outside the helmet, where the tie will be more liable to come undone.

    The lacing can be done with any strong piece of cord or lace of the right thickness if the lace originally provided gets broken.

    How to fit the Helmet.

    The wearer of the helmet should see that it fits well. The leather band of the lining should fit as closely as possible around the head without being too tight. If it is too loose and the next size smaller is too tight, the lining should be padded with layers of paper or other material inside the leather band.

    When the fit around the head has been made right, the helmet should be worn to see whether it comes down far enough, or too far, on the head. This can be adjusted by lenghtening or shortening the piece of cord which is threaded through the webbing band at the crown of the head. The brim at the front should be about level with the eyebrows when the helmet is worn in a comfortable position on the head. (Note - the cord must not be loosened so much that the head nearly comes in contact with the steel body. People with high-domed heads may find it advisable to wear the helmet above eyebrow level.)

    Chinstrap or Carrrying Loops

    No chinstrap is provided because it is not likely to be necessary except in rare circumstances. Nevertheless lugs are provided inside the helmet on either side through which a piece of tape can be threaded if desired, to form either a strap (to be worn either under the chin or at the back of the head) or a carrying loop.

    ((This single sheet pamphlet is undated))

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