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The new ebay money maker

Article about: One of these sold for over 880. The other two hope to !

  1. #61


    Mind you this one is also a stunner as I am sure the SAS did not wear the artists rifled badge until after WII and the white metal badge is great war in date?


    I can't be arsed to copy and paste the pics, sorry.


    Whatever its just an opinion.

  2. #62
    Last edited by Grimebox; 08-10-2016 at 11:25 PM.

  3. #63


    Quote by Grimebox View Post
    Spot the obvious mistake with this one. Obviously run out of combat helmets and has got tired of painting so has used transfers
    I see no problem with a home front helmet having an infantry unit insignia, as this is quite commonly seen on home guard helmets. With this one it is the net ghosting I dislike as it appears to possibly be sprayed on


    Whatever its just an opinion.

  4. #64


    I'm watching you guys too... Be careful of libel chaps and what your posting online ...solicitors love it when it's so easy for them and nicely laid out 😜🔫 ps Jerry you need to get out more mate

  5. #65


    Get back under your stone.

  6. #66


    Many thanks for joining the forum. For the purposes of this post I will assume that you are Mr Goldsmith (and not an Internet troll). If you have taken offence then I sincerely apologise. If (as some of your descriptions on eBay state) you have had these helmets for a number of years and have collected a great many incredibly rare painted helmets then I am very sorry to inform you that in my personal opinion the majority are fake. That is to say that it is my belief that they have been painted post war and artificially aged or altered and thus are not 'original'. It is most unfortunate as given the number that you have possessed I would suggest that had they been real then it would probably have been a collection of national importance. Hopefully now that you are a member you will take the time to look at other posts and ask questions about your own items to gain a greater knowledge (we are always learning!). By doing this you can amend your eBay listings so as to not get yourself in trouble with the law.
    (Please note that my opinion is based on thirty years collecting experience, I am not a scholar by any means, however there are other members here who are or are recognised for their knowledge in militaria)

    You quite rightly mention libel and I think it is important that members of Internet forums are aware of this, as well as the law in relation to selling fraudulent items.

    This is a post for ALL members/visitors (UK relevant only) and is not directed at any single person.

    There are two versions of defamation, libel and slander. Libel is when the defamation is written down (including email, bulletin boards and websites), and slander is when the incident relates to words spoken.
    In the UK, if someone thinks that what you wrote about them is either defamatory or damaging, the onus will be entirely on you to prove that your comments are true in court. In other words, if you make the claim, you've got to prove it! (Although a High Court ruling in 2009 ruled that defamation on internet bulletin boards is akin to slander rather than libel. Mr Justice Eady said that the comments were likely to be considered as 'fair comment' i.e. they cannot be considered as defamatory if they are posted without malice and represent the posters honest views)
    In respect of my comments in post#24 I named the seller of a number of the helmets posted on this thread. This post was a statement of fact, with the attached links anybody could have found the sellers name. I also described the helmets as 'faked painted helmets', this is a statement that I would stand by. Post#27 could be inferred as directed at the aforementioned seller, however, as other 're-worked/bastardised' helmets are also shown in this thread I was making a general comment that those who regularly sell helmets that have been repainted to increase their value are committing criminal acts. Post#58 are also statements, that is to say that they 'open source' documents and available to anybody with time on their hands to view should they so wish (any publicity is good publicity, so they say). Post#62 could have been inferred as defamatory, although I would dispute this, it is a statement about my concerns over originality of the helmet, but in any case I have amended it so that it is no longer visible.
    Whilst I cannot speak for others I would assume that like me they are very passionate about military history, in particular WW2. It is this passion, along with a moral compass, which makes me feel aggrieved when I see items from our Nations history which I perceive to have been altered for no other reason than financial gain (I would suspect that the general public would also agree with this). This is a collectors forum and the originality and provenance of the vast majority of the items on here (in every section) are questioned in some way so that lessons can be learnt and mistakes (in relation to purchases/additions to collections) can be avoided. It is my honest held view that it is my civic duty and as a collector and forum member to inform others if I feel that they may be become a victim of fraud if they unwittingly purchase an item (any item) that I know is not what it is purporting to be.
    Now that you are a member may I suggest that if you feel that I or any member have been defamatory towards you then you contact one of the site administrators. I'm sure that if they feel that if any of the posts have crossed the line then they can delete them and sanction their own punishments should they so wish.
    Libel (in the main) is dealt with by Civil law.

    Now let's look at Criminal law.
    Think of an item (any item) that has been altered in such a way as to misrepresent what it actually is. Now imagine that the said item is described for sale with terms such as 'genuine' or 'original' (and other comments to create a false 'provenance') when the seller knows that this is not the case but has done so in order make a gain. Depending on the value the Police and CPS would have to justify that a Court case would be in the public interest for a single item, however, if multiple items (any items) were sold this would obviously strengthen a case as there may be numerous victims. This is covered by:
    Section 2 of the Fraud Act - Fraud by false representation
    (1) A person is in breach of this section if he
    (a) dishonestly makes a false representation, and
    (b) intends, by making the representation
    (i) to make a gain for himself or another, or
    (ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.
    (2) A representation is false if
    (a) it is untrue or misleading, and
    (b) the person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading.
    (3) Representation means any representation as to fact or law, including a representation as to the state of mind of
    (a) the person making the representation, or
    (b) any other person.
    (4) A representation may be express or implied.
    (5) For the purposes of this section a representation may be regarded as made if it (or anything implying it) is submitted in any form to any system or device designed to receive, convey or respond to communications (with or without human intervention).
    A person who commits this offence is liable for arrest should the requirements of Code G of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act (PACE) are met. I would suggest that in a case as described above then the following would apply:
    (e) to allow the prompt and effective investigation of the offence or of the conduct of the person in question.
    the person has made false statements and/or presented false evidence;
    it is thought likely that the person:
    ∼ may steal or destroy evidence;
    ∼ may collude or make contact with, co-suspects or conspirators;
    (There are various other conditions, however I won't bore you, they are available online or should you ever find yourself arrested it is one of your legal rights to be given a copy of PACE to read).
    In order for the Police to conduct their investigation this would necessitate searches of any premises of the person arrested to secure and preserve evidence (I.e. Seize items). This would be covered by Section 32 PACE if the person is arrested at their home address or Section 18 PACE if arrested elsewhere. The seizing of items is covered by Section 19 PACE.
    In a case, as previously described, if an item was altered to make a gain then the Police may seek to seize similar items and any items that may have been used to alter an item. If the item was offered for sale via the Internet then the Police may seize any electronic device including computers, tablets, mobile phones, etc (now that would be a bugger!)
    Of course the difference between Civil law and Criminal law is that Criminal law requires evidence 'beyond reasonable doubt'. That is to say that if an item (or numerous items) were altered in such a way as to defraud somebody then the CPS would have to prove that the person selling the item/s knew that they were fake and their intention was to defraud. This could be proved by items seized from the Defendant or done by getting an expert (or several) to evidence (giving reasons) as to why something was a fake and created to defraud. Again, this is easier if numerous items have been created and sold as it shows a 'course of conduct'. Another way of proving the offence is to evidence the fact that the seller had been informed that the items that they were selling were fake. If, for example, a person was informed by letter or email (or maybe a forum post) that the items they were selling were fraudulent but continued to offer them for sale with descriptions that they now knew to be false then they would commit the offence.
    The above is a worse case scenario, the alternative is covered by The Trade Descriptions Act 1968
    The Trade Descriptions Act makes it an offence for a trader to make false or misleading statements about goods or services. It carries criminal penalties and is enforced by Trading Standards Officers, making it an offence for a trader to:
    - apply a false trade description to any goods
    - supply or offer to supply any goods to which a false trade description has been applied
    make certain kinds of false statement about the provision of any services, facilities or accommodation
    I feel that the above is self explanatory, it is in essence a watered down fraud by false representation, the burden of proof is lower hence more likely to be pursued / successful at Court.

    In the UK anybody can make a report of a suspected offence to the Police, you do not have to be the victim. However offences originating via telephone or the Internet are usually investigated by the Constabulary where the suspect originates from, thus it is usually quicker to make that complaint straight to them rather than your home Constabulary.
    Alternatively Internet fraud (including eBay) can be reported to Trading Standards who normally take the lead in these type of cases.

    I feel that the below article highlights the perils of selling items that are not what they have been described to be:

    BBC NEWS | UK | England | Pair jailed over fake autographs
    BBC NEWS | UK | England | Pair jailed over fake autographs

    PLEASE NOTE: This post is here merely to inform and should not be taken that any of the aforementioned sellers, persons or forum members (me included) have committed any offences. The law is complex and should you wish to enter into a world of criminality you may want to read up before hand and not take my word for it!
    This is for UK residents only, if you want to slander or defraud somebody in your own country you might want to check your local laws.

  7. #67


    Interesting, informative and very well written. Than you.

  8. #68


    And thank you for post#28. I may have come back as a bit short and for this I apologise. You are correct that many people visit this forum (not everybody desirable) which is why I reiterate that the above post is for all and not directed at any one person

  9. #69


    Thanks for the reply, and your recent above post ( sorry don't know your name grimebox )

    I'm fully aware of the law as I have a very good lawyer in London but thanks for sharing it with not just me but others posting on this forum .Previous posts on this site yes we're very offensive towards me ,posted by some of the members directed at my sales on my eBay site .It was infact a friend who alerted me to this thread and hence I have joined to reply . I'm getting married next year and as most of you know who take the plunge my helmet collection has been asked to move out of the family home and be sold ( the down side of domestic bliss I suppose.)

    Thanks for the heads up on the helmets I had or have , I have removed any others to look into this further as I'm not in the business of being a " crook " as one of your more eloquent members posted ! . I have collected for many years but as all collectors know I have reached a point where the collection needs to be thinned out. I did purchase a batch of helmets a fair few years ago now from a few chaps in France and Belgium and if I recall Holland and sadly most of the ones you mention came from this lot. I feel personally that they are perfectly ok but like I said better to be safe than sorry so as a responsible seller i removed the last few from my site.

    Most sensible collectors on here will know that after years of collecting you look back at previous purchases and think I wouldn't buy that now but with age comes wisdom , it's a very hard subject to say that something is wartime or post war as non of us were there ! A lot of items were altered over time innocently but collectors and enthusiastic collectors and of course that's why forums such as this are created to share information in an adult and well mannered way ...we hope.

    I would suggest in future please if you want to speak to me about a matter call me or email me but please don't run my family name down on a website it's just not cricket and personally it's very juvenile and irritating.

    Many thanks again for your reply


    Ps I suggest your members remove their offensive comments targeted at me and my personal information to save everyone's time and money ! Thank you and happy collecting

  10. #70


    Thank you for your honest and polite reply. As you have asked politely I have removed said details.
    The original poster of this thread, I'm sure, made it with good intentions and to alert collectors to the fact that there have been an increase of altered/forged British helmets coming on to the market for some months (faked German helmets have been the thorn in the side of the collecting world for many years). When people are passionate about things then emotions can get the better of them.

    Perhaps the best way to end this thread (and any subsequent threads) is with following advice lifted straight from eBay (again this is not directed at any particular person or item shown in this thread):

    'There are 2 ways to deal with sellers of counterfeit items effectively!

    1) Report them to eBay

    Once you've found a counterfeit item:

    a) Click on the listing and scroll to the bottom.

    b) Click on the report item link.

    c) Select the correct reasoning for reporting the item.

    d) Give a brief description of why you have reported the item.

    2) Report them to Trading Standards

    This is very very simple to do.

    If you spot anyone selling counterfeit items or you have bought fake items yourself, then simply go here:
    (copy and paste above link into web address bar)

    Just enter the post code of the seller to find their nearest Trading Standards office. Then pass their details (Name, Address and eBay Name) over to Trading Standards.

    Sit back and let Trading Standards get all of their sales data off eBay & Paypal and then take legal proceedings.

    It's really as simple as that!

    With a few minutes of you're time will help others from buying fakes and make eBay a safer place to buy and sell.'

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