What's wrong with allied helmets?

[Composite]

I got into a brief discussion at a Fair the other day which has really made me think…I was asked why I no longer collect TR lids and why the interest in them outweighs all other helmets / nations put together. I could answer the first one easily – I simply got to a point when I couldn’t be 100% sure that what I was about to commit a frighteningly high amount of money to was what I was being told it actually was….so I dropped out of the race and moved to other types. But that didn’t answer the second bit about why TR helmets, indeed TR EVERYTHING, is always the Quarterback, the Prom Queen, the Centre Forward, the singer, the Nike, the Apple etc etc of the militaria world. I mean just look at any forum…..you could have just taken ownership of the helmet (netted of course…and possibly even badged) worn by the lead Commando at the St Nazaire raid only to be swamped with posts to someone who’s mate claims to have a biro which might’ve been used by a friend of an SS man AFTER the war.

Since I couldn’t answer that question intelligently and without using broad brush sweeping generalities I side-stepped it but it’s been on my mind since and, having chatted it over, I’ve come up with a number of possibilities….

1) They were the losers and “everyone loves the underdog” – ‘might be a bit harsh but factually correct. But if this is the case why don’t Forums ring to the tunes of collectors specialising in helmets from all the other defeated countries through history….Iraq? Grenada? Iran? Argentina? US (Vietnam)? France (at the start at least)? Czech? etc etc

2) “They were elite” – this one kinda insults every specialist from the French Resistance, the SOE, Green Berets, SAS, GSG etc so perhaps it means the elite from the OTHER* side….but that means collectors of Republican Guard stuff, Fedayeen stuff, Argentine Commando stuff, US Delta, Grenadian-based Cuban stuff, Brit Para, Spetnaz stuff etc etc would fill every forum….they don’t. (*”other” is gonna potentially cause issues…but you know what I mean….)

3) That “it’s better quality stuff” – now this one’s pretty much irrefutable….one only has put an Adrian, MkII, Ssh39 (or 40!) or “Doughboy” next to an early war double-decaled M35 to see this is pretty true and even when the allies made improvements they still didn’t come close to the quality of the build. One has to ask why the Adrian helmet, with it’s unique vented crown and interior leather, doesn’t seem to have quite the same fan-base but hey….Admittedly the German quality was sacrificed it as supplies/resources thinned out but……

4) The ideology…..’not gonna go there except to say this IS a reason some “people” collect.

5) “They’re a better investment”…….oh, that old one…….

6) “They’re cool” – now this one crops up time and time again. A definition states that cool means “very fashionable, stylish, or appealing in a way that is generally approved of especially by young people”. ‘not sure about the “young people” bit, especially where most folk here opt to display their ages under their Avatar (sorry boys!)….so I THINK this means the attraction is that at a time when other countries helmets were one-colour pudding-bowl wannabees with webbing and faux leather (this excludes “Adrian”) inners, a uniquely shaped, highly engineered BADGED helmet stuck out like a Lambo at a Nash Metropolitan Convention. Indeed, was it the badging that did it??...are collectors simply hypnotised by the presence of a stick-on badge? (from the number of books produced on this particular topic there MUST be some attraction there)...oh and we have badges too!!!!

7) …or finally……”you’re in the wrong Forum!”…….mmmm…now THAT one hurt!


So I can conclude that I DON’T KNOW…..I wanna go with a combination of 3) [quality] and 6) [cool]…….but could be wrong……

…..’any thoughts?


Perhaps I should’ve posted this in a different category/group……..??

[paulp4180]

A good question there Composite, one that I've just sat and thought about for a while and asked myself this question to myself ...

For me its definitely not the ideology behind these artifacts, I've always been interested in the world wars, hearing my two Granddads and various great uncles tales from WW2, all from the British side, by the way. Then with their passing inheriting their medals and various pieces, but for me it was always the German side that really held my interest, I remember watching the film "Big Red 1" as a kid, seeing a German helmet on screen abandoned, wishing I could go and pick it up.

Maybe its the link to an immorality that got away with evil for so long and its a connection to that that makes these objects more interesting? It can't even be that fact that they were the losing side as (no offence to those collectors either ) Japanese or Italian certainly don't seem to get as much interest either.

I forgot who wrote it, but an author once commented that nothing sells quicker than a book with a swastika on it, this also shows up with the media, there's always some headline with "Nazi" blazoned across it, even though there's usually no connection, whether it be some TV chef / Royalty dressing up in fancy dress or a serial murderer who has a German dictionary.

So to answer your question, Compo, I can't I've always been interested in the German side of the World Wars and probably always will be.

[BlackCat1982]

I don't agree that calling TR helmets better quality is necessarily true. For quality and design you would have to go a long way to dispute the American M1, with it's separate liner and webbing as opposed to the M35/M40/M42/M38 with leather liner etc. Thankfully there are collectors for all types of helmets and those that have been UK Brodies for some time are probably lucky they started when most of us were still getting all misty eyed over a DD M35!

Enjoy collecting what you want as long as you can afford it and do the research.

[AIF]

What's wrong with Allied helmets? They're boring, ugly and look gay... Sorry I know the truth hurts

Yours sincerely

A fellow Allied helmet collector...

I think it definitely has a lot to do with the cool factor for the majority of collectors (let's face it they were the coolest looking helmet in WW2) add with that with a dash of the ideology of what they stand for and a pinch of romanticism of what once was and never will be again, combine then place in the oven for 20 minutes on meduim high and you have your answer.

But in all seriousness when you think about it the German helmet as well as the iron cross are probably the two most iconic items from the war so it is understandable that they are the most popular items (insert coolest) for collectors. The German parade uniforms and early insignia and even the medals were also beautiful pieces of craftsmanship when compared to the boring get the job done crap we were wearing, plus they had a cool looking badge and award for just about everything so you can see why the allure for German items is and always has been there.
I've collected Australian WW2 for over 25 years now and I am actually glad German is more popular as we had such a small army compared to most other nations in the war so a lot of stuff didn't survive and was used up post war as well and is now really scarce and hard to find so I most likely would never have been able to get a lot of the things I have if there was more competition and people collecting the stuff.

[Composite]

...very interesting points.....especially the pre-nasty nazis bit (although as we now know they weren't ever good....they just got worse!) and the quality/craftsmanship issue can't be disputed.....

[Jerry B]

I have also wondered why this might be, obviously as posted, the helmet and iron cross are icons of the two world wars.

Some wonderfully rare and special items get posted here and on other forums and are often met by a wall of silence and indifference but post a post war repainted m35 with fake decals and you will get a three page thread discussing if it is worth stripping the overpaint on the slight chance there might be traces of the original paint and or decal underneath.

I have no idea why that is the case, or why rust bucket dug ups now attract more money than just about anything allied or from anywhere else.

[Greg Pickersgill]

I too am baffled by all the concentration - and vast amounts of money - centred around TR helmets. It's not like they're even especially rare - even if you discount fakes and frauds they always outnumber anything else at any militaria fair I go to and there's never a shortage on Ebay and many dealers trade in nothing else. And always the premium prices, which implies that demand if greater than supply (yet I can see dealers at fairs packing away as many as they brought.) And then there's the truly *huge* amount of information about them - you'd need more than a four-foot shelf to jam in all the books about helmets alone, never mind those covering every other detail about TR kit and memorabilia. And this is in a world where there is not one comprehensive and reliable book about British helmets - never mind Swedish, Spanish, or Swiss.

So clearly, a huge appetite, but fuelled by what. This is where I completely understand Adrian's own questions. Obviously there's the self-fulfilling prophecy of investment - but are they popular because they're expensive or are they expensive because they're popular, and does demand actually massively exceed supply? Is there a Sinister Side to all this - well, I've always thought so, based on the fact that sometimes when in militaria shops I have sometimes been asked quite strange questions which seem to be begging the 'right' answer, with the veiled promise of seeing the 'good stuff' they can't display. My response that I'm actually after Swedish helmets always somehow offends.

There is a strange glamour factor - I used to associate with a bunch of people who without an ultra-right bone in their bodies would start going on and on and on about 'Nazi regalia' after the sixth or seventh pint; mind you it was always in relation to it being worn by sternly dominating and deeply erotic women of the type they'd never get so much as a 'piss off' from unless they paid for it. And then there's the people who hang about militaria shops dressed in what is not quite a uniform.

Then there's the simple recognition factor - most people, however uninformed, have some idea of a TR helmet or uniform if presented with one (though it never stops people endlessly confusing the Swastika with the Hakenkreuz, with predictable results). I've lost track of the number of people who ask "Have you got any German helmets?" when they find out I'm a collector - they are always disappointed when I show them an M1A1 or even an uncommon West German M56.

I could go on but I'd be paraphrasing Adrian's nicely worked piece. I just don't get it. And yes, I would be more than happy to have a set of M35/40/42 in simple intact but unembellished condition, but I'm not going to sell my entire collection to get them. I get plenty of joy from a nice Jeanne d'Arc, and if I was going to spend big money it would be on another M56 - a truly rare helmet.

[mauser9]

Agree with above posts. Third Reich items will always fetch more as long as collector interest remains high. Market for the guns, daggers, helmets, and medals seems strong and these items seem available as long as collectors are willing to fork over big bucks. I am sure the regime they are attached to has a lot to do with it. As long as collector interest remains high I feel prices will continue to rise or at least stay stable. Just my two cents.

[Greg Pickersgill]

I would like to make the point - separately here rather than as an edit, so it is obvious - that I have nothing intrinsically against TR collectors and admire their enthusiasm and knowledge exactly as I do enthusiasm and knowledge in any other field, and neither do I assume anything about the whys and hows of their interest. It's a perfectly legitimate collecting field, but because I am mostly a post-WW2 collector I do not really share it. I certainly do not, though, see it as the absolute pinnacle of collecting, although one does get the impression many people do.

[bigmacglenn]

Excellent Thread Topic - Thanks for Posting! -
I suppose that it's practically a Tradition for Fighting Men to seek a War Trophy from the Enemy Camp, and the Striking Appearance of the German Stahlhelm would explain their desirability from that perspective...Allied Helmets & Misc. Militaria have always been the easiest to find - There's less Challenge, or "Thrill of the Hunt" involved, lol...I'll certainly agree that the Market Prices have gotten downright astronomical on certain examples...But folks still seem willing to pay to own one, lol...
For me, personally, I had family members on both sides, Allied and Axis...but my Collecting Passion has always been more towards the German Side of the Family, lol...More Personal Drama/Action involved, German Items "Speak to Me" - Allied Items to a lesser degree...
All I can say is "Carry On, Friends"...I enjoy learning from your Contributions regardless!
cheers, Glenn