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hj badge

Article about: hi folks Annoyed from this ads?   just recently bought a hj badge and on the back is a rzm mark on one side and just a number 13 on the other, any ideas plz

  1. #21

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    That is interesting, I maybe wrong but that means that the RZM number M1/63 is for Steinhauer & Lück?
    When we all know that No4 is Steinhauer & Luck so that doesn't follow with what you are saying.
    Personally I still think it's a Gustav Brehmer but that is JMO

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  3. #22
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    Quote by John Brandon View Post
    That is interesting, I maybe wrong but that means that the RZM number M1/63 is for Steinhauer & Lück?
    When we all know that No4 is Steinhauer & Luck so that doesn't follow with what you are saying.
    Personally I still think it's a Gustav Brehmer but that is JMO
    What you're talking about are different numbers. PKZ number 4 is Steinhauer & Lück, but that doesn't apply to these badges at all. These are RZM codes and have nothing to do with PKZ or LDO. If a membership badge were marked 'RZM 4,' the maker would be Karl Gutenkunst. If a wound badge were marked 4, then you're correct in saying that the maker would be Steinhauer & Lück. However, those two systems are completely different and one has no bearing on the other.

    Also, if I'm not mistaken (I might be because I don't collect awards and medals), the PKZ numbers were introduced long after this badge was made. Bearing the transitional RZM code, this badge would have been produced between 1933 and 1935. It is my understanding that the PKZ codes were introduced at some point after the beginning of the war.

  4. #23

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    so if the badges was marked 101 instead of 13 it would be brehmer

  5. #24
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    Quote by dasreich View Post
    so if the badges was marked 101 instead of 13 it would be brehmer
    I've never seen a transitional badge marked to Brehmer. It's possible that they weren't issued their RZM license number for badges until after the transitional era. But if they do exist, then one would almost certainly be marked 101 and not 13. An award marked 13 could be correctly attributed to Brehmer.

  6. #25

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    So by the looks of it then it's made by lauer, which is good because I just got a iron cross 2 nd class made by them too

  7. #26

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    So what was the transitional period ?

  8. #27
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    Quote by dasreich View Post
    So what was the transitional period ?
    The transitional period was the era after the RZM was established but before all the rules regarding the markings were put in place. During the transitional era, makers had more flexibility in marking their badges. For example, some makers just used the RZM symbol with no numeral code, some included their company logo along with the RZM symbol, etc. In 1935, the system was refined and prefixes were added to all the codes, so what was once RZM 17 was now RZM M1/17, RZM M4/39 and so on.

  9. #28

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    At the end of 1928 Hitler ordered the Oberste SA-Führung to create the Zeugmeisterei.
    The central department at Munich was phrased as Reichszeugmeisterei. All over Germany
    a series of Zeugmeistereien did exist. Since April 1933 only the RZM at Munich did exist, all others
    had to dissolve (Verordnungsblatt der Reichsleitung der NSDAP from May 15, 1933)

    With an order from December 1931, published in the "Verordnungsblatt der Reichsleitung der NSDAP"
    directives were given how to mark some specific badges:
    1) the party badge as ges.gesch with the names of the concerns Deschler & Sohn from Munich,
    M.Kremhelmer Munich, F.Hoffstätter from Bonn, Steinhauer & Lück Lüdenscheid and Paul
    Meybauer from Berlin. At that moment no others officially were allowed to manufacturer
    this type of badge.
    2) The small political eagle with pin was only allowed to be manufacturered by F.W.Assmann
    and had the A and ges.gesch;
    3) The early HJ with sun symbol was only allowed to be manufactured by Otto Baudermann
    from erlbach along with ges.gesch;
    4) the Jungvolk insignia by F. Hoffstätter from Bon only with ges.gesch;
    5) Kraftfahrer-Abzeichen: also Assmann with an A and ges.gesch;
    6) Badges for the Frauenschaft were manufactured by Steinhauer & Lück with ges. gesch.

    It was specifically stated that badges not having these indications or other indications
    were "fakes" or reproductions(Nachahmungen).

    In about 1932 the first numbers appeared, occasionally along with the RZM sign; in about
    early summer 1933 followed by the codes MA (Metallwaren), UE (Uniform-Effekten) and for
    example KH (Koppelschlösser). In 1935 they became respecively M1, M5 and M4.

    The HJ-badge from post 3 with RZM 13 is from L. Christian Lauer from Nürnberg. It has nothing to do
    with Brehmer and Erno is correct. It is the RZM-number, which has nothing to do at all with the LDO
    number or number from the Präsidialkanzlei. Often number-systems are mixed up by many collectors.

    M1/63 is Steinhauer & Lück, according the RZM system with the M1-code; LDO (Leistungs-
    gemeinschaft der Deutschen Ordenshersteller), so L 63 is G.H.Osang a partial licensed concern and
    from the Firmenliste der Präsidialkanzlei nr. 63 is Franz Klast & Söhne from Gablonz.

    One should note the concern Steinhauer & Lück was the official development concern (Entwicklungs-
    firma) from the Präsidalkanzlei. They developed the sample dies for orders and decorations. Other
    concerns had to follow theis instructions.
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  10. #29

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    Very informative, thanks chaps

  11. #30
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    Quote by Wilhelm Saris View Post
    At the end of 1928 Hitler ordered the Oberste SA-Führung to create the Zeugmeisterei.
    The central department at Munich was phrased as Reichszeugmeisterei. All over Germany
    a series of Zeugmeistereien did exist. Since April 1933 only the RZM at Munich did exist, all others
    had to dissolve (Verordnungsblatt der Reichsleitung der NSDAP from May 15, 1933)

    With an order from December 1931, published in the "Verordnungsblatt der Reichsleitung der NSDAP"
    directives were given how to mark some specific badges:
    1) the party badge as ges.gesch with the names of the concerns Deschler & Sohn from Munich,
    M.Kremhelmer Munich, F.Hoffstätter from Bonn, Steinhauer & Lück Lüdenscheid and Paul
    Meybauer from Berlin. At that moment no others officially were allowed to manufacturer
    this type of badge.
    2) The small political eagle with pin was only allowed to be manufacturered by F.W.Assmann
    and had the A and ges.gesch;
    3) The early HJ with sun symbol was only allowed to be manufactured by Otto Baudermann
    from erlbach along with ges.gesch;
    4) the Jungvolk insignia by F. Hoffstätter from Bon only with ges.gesch;
    5) Kraftfahrer-Abzeichen: also Assmann with an A and ges.gesch;
    6) Badges for the Frauenschaft were manufactured by Steinhauer & Lück with ges. gesch.

    It was specifically stated that badges not having these indications or other indications
    were "fakes" or reproductions(Nachahmungen).

    In about 1932 the first numbers appeared, occasionally along with the RZM sign; in about
    early summer 1933 followed by the codes MA (Metallwaren), UE (Uniform-Effekten) and for
    example KH (Koppelschlösser). In 1935 they became respecively M1, M5 and M4.

    The HJ-badge from post 3 with RZM 13 is from L. Christian Lauer from Nürnberg. It has nothing to do
    with Brehmer and Erno is correct. It is the RZM-number, which has nothing to do at all with the LDO
    number or number from the Präsidialkanzlei. Often number-systems are mixed up by many collectors.

    M1/63 is Steinhauer & Lück, according the RZM system with the M1-code; LDO (Leistungs-
    gemeinschaft der Deutschen Ordenshersteller), so L 63 is G.H.Osang a partial licensed concern and
    from the Firmenliste der Präsidialkanzlei nr. 63 is Franz Klast & Söhne from Gablonz.

    One should note the concern Steinhauer & Lück was the official development concern (Entwicklungs-
    firma) from the Präsidalkanzlei. They developed the sample dies for orders and decorations. Other
    concerns had to follow theis instructions.
    Thank you for the very informative post, Wilhelm. Your posts are a real asset to the forum.

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