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HJ knive; Blued Scabbards

Article about: I have noticed most HJ daggers seem to have a black painted scabbard. But some are blued. My question is did blueing only occur with certain companies or on early knives? Secondly can a date

  1. #1

    Default HJ knive; Blued Scabbards

    I have noticed most HJ daggers seem to have a black painted scabbard. But some are blued. My question is did blueing only occur with certain companies or on early knives?
    Secondly can a date be given when blueing of scabbards ended? Would an early knife without RZM code always have a blued scabbard?

    I'm new here, so sorry if this is answered elsewhere. Thanks.

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  3. #2
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    Quote by Anderson View Post
    I have noticed most HJ daggers seem to have a black painted scabbard. But some are blued. My question is did blueing only occur with certain companies or on early knives?
    Secondly can a date be given when blueing of scabbards ended? Would an early knife without RZM code always have a blued scabbard?

    I'm new here, so sorry if this is answered elsewhere. Thanks.


    Welcome Anderson,


    Some makers of Early & Transitional period hj knifes have blued scabbards from 1933 up to around 1936-1938, from what i have came across over the years is most early & Transitional hj knifes had painted black scabbards so a blued scabbard is rarer to find imo, hope this helps.



    Mac 66

  4. #3
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    I have encountered only a few of them so far, makers sofar i have seen with anodise/brünierte scabbards:
    Eickhorn
    Böker
    E.Pack
    Konejung
    Tiger
    Klaas (1936 models with ricasso)
    All exept Konejung (transitional) were very early thinblade no ricasso knives.
    There will be others out there....perhaps Maxx can add some to this list....so Jens please?

    Regards
    Ger
    Last edited by gerrit; 09-26-2019 at 08:48 AM.

  5. #4
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    To add to Gers list above makers of hj knifes with blued scabbards :

    WKC

    F.W. HOLLER

    GUST. L . KOLLER

    These 3 makers were Transitionals high ricasso blade hjs




    Regards Mac 66

  6. #5

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    Not a factor here as the scabbards under discussion uses the correct terminology, in the past I've had a few minor face to face discussions at shows with a well known East Coast dealer and some others who insisted that their TR period daggers/knives etc. (with both the blued and browned scabbards) were "anodized". I asked them to find me one - just one - individual who would agree that the TR period rifles, bayonets etc. they had were "anodized". But he refused with the reason being that he didn't want to confuse his customers with facts . Which are for the HJ knives is that there is period documentation that says: "Sie ist schwarz zu brünieren" (It is black to brown), with the first indicating painted black, and the second what the Germans of the period used when referring to both browned and blued. (Whereas eloxiert is the proper German term for anodized - that you will not find in period literature for use on steel.) Best Regards, Fred

  7. #6
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    Fred your translation from German into English is not correct
    Brünieren comes from the French word Brunir= to make brown.
    Brünieren is the building of a top layer on a surface created by the chemical reaction of acid or salts with the metal .
    The longer the process the darker the surface.
    So.. sie ist schwarz zu brünieren= in this case the scabbard has to be " browned" until its black.
    Meaning the browning process should be continued until the black colour is there.

    Regards
    Ger

  8. #7

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    Quote by gerrit View Post
    Fred your translation from German into English is not correct
    Brünieren comes from the French word Brunir= to make brown.
    Brünieren is the building of a top layer on a surface created by the chemical reaction of acid or salts with the metal .
    The longer the process the darker the surface.
    So.. sie ist schwarz zu brünieren= in this case the scabbard has to be " browned" until its black.
    Meaning the browning process should be continued until the black colour is there.

    Regards
    Ger
    Ger, I will most respectfully have to stand by what I said. I am and was in agreement that Brünieren does come from the French word for Browning (as used at the time on the Continent and UK) which was originally an old slow rust process that was built up in layers. But that with chemicals and changes in the finishing processes eventually evolved into the rust bluing that we also see on mostly older guns.

    Rust bluing commonly seen for example on older Mauser riles and Luger pistols, being replaced circa 1930's and a little later on a maker and date specific basis depending on the item and maker. The replacement being the newer "hot dip" process that is now called by many 'black oxide'. The process for most practical purposes almost immediate and depending on the length of time the item is left in the bluing tanks increasing the depth of color - that takes usually just minutes instead of hours/days.

    With near the end of the war, a letter from Albert Speer to Mauser Werke directing that the Brünierung equipment as well as equipment for its equivalent to a phosphate finish for steel (a variant of what's seen on period U.S. "Parkerized" guns, bayonets etc.) that Mauser was using concurrently with its 'hot dip'/black oxide finish. Said equipment to be be moved to a new location (it did not happen before it was captured). My point being that I believe that my use of words is correct in the context of the TR time period. Best Regards. Fred
    Last edited by Larry C; 12-18-2016 at 09:41 PM.

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    Forgive me Fred..but I had to spread out the paragraphs to better read and understand what was being written.

    These old eyes find it hard to read text in "block form "

    Best Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  10. #9

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    Thank you those that replied. Very helpful and interesting.

  11. #10

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    Quote by Larry C View Post
    Forgive me Fred..but I had to spread out the paragraphs to better read and understand what was being written.

    These old eyes find it hard to read text in "block form "

    Best Larry
    Larry, no problem with that as it does seem to be easier to read. In the interest of brevity I left out a few additional (IMO) interesting facts, the first of which is that in a fairly well detailed 1937 Mauser rifle contract in Art. 26 it specifically states "Brünierung" - going on to further state that occasional slight signs of a reddish tint (which is not uncommon and tending to be date specific) was a result of the steel alloy used and not a cause for rejection. And a later RZM document that stated that it was "schwarz lackiert" (versus "schwarz brüniert") as a finish for the later HJ scabbards - presumably because painting was faster and more cost effective. With my Best Regards, Fred

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