Post WW2 German Scouting / HJ Knife Transition Discussion
Show us current HJ knives by past producers..being produced today. Regards Larry
Members are invited to input any maker background inf they have on these.
Photos are top to bottom (maker marks) in the group photo from right to left.
The last photo at very bottom shows the most noticed difference in HJ diamond size from the WW2 type and the postwar made type by some of the same designers later in their fine careers.
PIC logo (photo #3 from top) Maker History
During the 30 Years War (1618-1648) Jurgen Herder began tempering swords. In 1650 he diversified to produce knives, most for export to Dutch markets. To make his models unique he registered the "Pic-As" trademark in 1727. Now the oldest trademark in Solingen. Fork Brand was introduced in the Maylay Archipelago. In 1850 expanded into South America and Southern Europe. The "Constant" mark implemented in 1927 after stainless steel in 1925. Don Carlos Brand in 1931, and new markets in 1955. Grab a cold "Kolsch" Herder is currently based in Solingen since 1995.
The older ones with proper Solingen blades were a very good blade. Many were taken in and rehandled with the cub scout logo (not just in the States). I think there were two sizes of blade and handle as my mate has one that was obviously rehandled (only with the kids size handle). It was his fathers when he was in the scouts (early '50's) . The handles weren't the most comfortable and the checkering was too big for childrens hands, which is why I suspect many boys would have opted for the Rodgers Bowie with stacked leather. Also German stuff would have been (unfairly) regarded as inferior equipment in those days. I would love one for a rehandling project, but I think they might command decent prices these days.
The paragraph above is from a member at a forum that I am registered on. It is a helpful viewpoint but does not actually represent my own opinions.
Yes, yours is a post-war HJ style German Scouting knife and genuine for sure. The side that has the letter code on the ricasso tells the "troop" division where your scout knife was designated for. There are more that will have that same letter code.
No war era type say "Germany" in English because Nazi's spoke german and Hitler made decree not to have foriegn infulence or be taken to concentration camp.
Great testimony to the quality standards of the RZM, seeing all these postwar ricaso stamps uneven, incomplete, and generally sloppy or even illegible.
But one postwar invention/inovation I DO like is the baby HJ Messer. This smaller size is very practical, I've had many on my travels and used them for slicing tomatoes, etc. where the regular size HJ knife might have caused a bit of unwanted attention. The Rostfrei blade is nice too, tho it doesn't keep an edge quite as long as the regular steel of original HJ blades. Could someone post a picture of the 2 sizes together for comparison.
Thanks for posting. That's a maker I haven't seen. Probably didn't make many before this one so didn't get the die-stamp fine-tuned yet.
The RZM wartime HJ knife is really only for comparison to the topic I have posted so try to stay on this subject. If you like you may post new makers of German Scouting Movement HJ style types that are not sloppy and have never been with any Nazi approval in earlier career.
The "sloppy" makers marks just shows that "nobody perfect" and stuff happens that will distract your attention away from your work. We are all sensitive people.
Show some of the different blade shapes (ex. Buffalo Skinner) type of post-war HJ style scouting knives!
Comparison Helps Too
The Hitler Jugend (HJ) of Nazideuschland and post-war german youth groups have a great deal in common, originating from traditional scouting, such as "Kohten", "Jurten", "Jujas" and many of the songs of Federal tradition. Nevertheless differences between both Scouts and Hitler Youth can still to be found, the largest being probably the education concept of scouts, rejected by Hess. They still do target shooting (even if they transferred in practice much of it). At the 1988 Meissner, which took place on the the 75th anniversary of the Free-German-Youth-Day, numerous Scouts participated out there on the rifle range.
Feel at ease to compare the wartime and postwar era because it helps to comprehend just what is going on here.
David Everts post-war HJ / Fahrtenmesser
Social control in post-war (1950's) Germany prohibited people from carrying "Pathfinder" and "HJ transition Fahrtenmesser" in public.
Other kinds of fixed blade sheath knives were allowed though. Forbidden and socially not acceptable but they liked them alots before.
The photo (second down from top) at the start of this topic I started is what I am sharing maker history on in this post (D. Everts) Solingen.
David Everts Company began making knives in 1802. Along comes Ludwig Groten who himself founded a pocket knife factory in 1922. Ludwig really liked to make SA daggers also.
The photo attached below shows the "crossed flags" pictorial logo that he used on David Everts brand starting 1960 when Ludwig Goten changed his company name. Compare the similarities of the 1947 and the 1960 logos and notice the similarities.
Ludwig Goten acquired other Solingen cutlery firms also.
Eventually his son sold out in 1980 and what was left drifted up to 1997 then with new management steadily pooping out and closed entirely in 2009.
Austrian Youth Groups and the HJ knife
A professional scholarship on Adolf Hitler and his power structure has all but disappeared since the 1950-60's.
The following is in reference to my topic grouping photo of the brown handled (second up from bottom) HJ style knife:
During the Meissnerformel (1929), 33 boy and 22 girl German speaking Austrian Youth Groups were founded. After the Anchluss of Austria to Nazi's (1938) these were banned then transferred to the HJ entirely. Here is where similarities in the Austrian HJ knife and the German HJ knife are first adopted.
This knife may well be the only example to be documented on the internet.
It is made by Wenger and shows their pictorial logo (crossbow) along side a stamped "Edelweiss" on the blade itself, (see photos below). The guard is made from aluminium and much lighter than any Bulgarian made "Brannik" or Robert Klaas made "Guardian" Youth Organization HJ style knife (1942-45).
The "Edelweiss" flower is a symbol used for mountain troops. Important to have lightweight gear when backpack hiking in the Alps.
This example has a sawback spine and can sell for upwards of $900.
In 1953 the Junge Bund was founded in Austria and remains independent and without religious restrictions to this day.
Superficially these scouts look very similar in appearance to Hitler Youth (see photo below).
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