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RZM code M7 Dagger makers who DID NOT MAKE HJ knives

Article about: There were 129 companies that were accepted as RZM M7 political dagger makers, which included the Hitler Youth knife. So which one's never made the HJ knife? Not an easy question to answer a

  1. #1

    Default RZM code M7 Dagger makers who DID NOT MAKE HJ knives

    There were 129 companies that were accepted as RZM M7 political dagger makers, which included the Hitler Youth knife. So which one's never made the HJ knife? Not an easy question to answer as most data bases simply lists all the makers, not what they didn't make.

    It occurred to me that a crude but acceptable methodology might be to employ the power of the Google search engine and search "HJ maker M7 code and name". That hopefully would identify makers where no dealer or seller has ever listed a HJ knife made by that maker, and or identify any such marked knife discussed on a Forum.

    So that's what I did and each maker identified I checked any link to view images, those that turned up on images or mentioned (apart from in a total RZM code list of which various site have), by noting those M7 makers with no evidence of a HJ knife for sale or under discussion I sorted out the likely "non producers". This is of course raw crude data and may not be fully accurate, because a very rare small production producer may not attract attention of the search engine. Such a maker's knife may never have been shown on the net. For these one I need readers to identify makers listed where they have an HJ knife by that maker. That name can then be removed as a confirmed maker (photo evidence please). If no one can challenge the list over time, it must be accurate.

    Why would this be useful? In my research to date several of these non producer names have appeared on faked HJ knives identified on various forums.

    To date i have gone systematically through the M7 list to the half way point. I will complete the other half tomorrow but thought I would post these initial "non HJ producers" so others can comment on any known errors. So remember this is raw data, so far between M7/1 and M7/79 I have identified 27 dagger makers who DID NOT make the HJ knife. So of first 80 makers (two had same number) 33% did not make the HJ knife. Here they are, see what you think;

    M7/4 August Muller KG
    M7/15 Carl u. Robert Linder
    M7/16 Justus Brenger "Justinuswerk"
    M7/17 A. Werth
    M7/22 Wilhelm Weltersbach
    M7/24 Reinh. Weyersburg
    M7/39 Franz Steinhoff
    M7/41 Rudolf Schmidt
    M7/44 F.W. Backhaus
    M7/46 Emil Gierling
    M7/47 Paul Ebel
    M7/48 Otto Simon
    M7/49 Friedrich Herder
    M7/50 Gebruder Herder
    M7/53 Nach.Gustav Weyersburg
    M7/54 Gottfried Muller
    M7/61 Carl Tillmans
    M7/63 Herder & Engels
    M7/64 Friedr. Geigis
    M7/69 H.A. Erbe AG
    M7/70 David Malsch
    M7/71 Herm. Hahn
    M7/74 Friedr. Aug. Schmitz
    M7/76 Herbeck & Meyer
    M7/77 Gustav Schmeider
    M7/78 Herm. Linder & Sohne
    M7/79 C.Bertram Reinhard & Sohne.
    M7/81 Karl Tiegel
    M7/82 Gebruder Born
    M7/86 Kuno Liemscheid & co
    M7/87 Maich & Ambrom
    M7/88 J.Schmidt & Sohn Juliuswerk
    M7/90 Eickelnberg & Mack
    M7/91 Carl Spitzer
    M7/92 Peter Daniel Krebs
    M7/95 J.A.Schmidt & Sohn
    M7/96 Drees & Sohn
    M7/97 F Koeller & co
    M7/98 Ernst Erich Witte
    M7/99 Frank Weinrank (Wien)
    M7/100 and M7/102 Franz Pils & Sohn, Wien.
    M7/101 Fritz Weber, Wien
    M7/103 josef Hack, Steyr
    M7/105 Rudolf Wurser
    M7/106 Georg Kerschbaumer
    M7/107 not issued
    M7/108 Karl Oschmann & co
    M7/109 Thomas Weilpotz
    M7/110 Felbeck & Pickard (solingen)
    M7/111 H.Herder
    M7/113 Berndorfer/ Arthur Krupp
    M7/114 Hugo Linder
    M7/115 Erhardt Reich
    M7/116 Franz Frenzel (Sudetenland)
    M7/163 E. & A. Helbig
    M7/183 Ernst Witte

    That leaves nine code numbers; 941,1051,1053,1164,1166,1197,1211,1221 issued mainly to manufacturers who had an alternative number. These numbers don't appear to have been used on HJ knives, but used on other daggers like the SS.

    The tally up shows 55 NON MAKERS of HJ knives.

    The number of makers who made HJ knives (while RZM codes were issued) comes to 63. So a little over half the RZM M7 coded manufacturers actually made the HJ knife.

    Seven makers had two sets of M7 codes.

    One more thing to consider; some early makers of the HJ knife may not have been awarded an RZM contract so never had a M7 code.

    But the purpose here is to identify those blade makers who DID NOT make the HJ knife. If you can spot any error please post a photo of the HJ knife marks and the list will be amended. Thank you.
    Last edited by Anderson; 12-07-2017 at 08:52 AM.

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  3. #2

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    Quote by Anderson View Post
    There were 129 companies that were accepted as RZM M7 political dagger makers, which included the Hitler Youth knife.
    Did you ever try to find out what manufacturers did loose their contract, as when it was
    revoked, withdrawn or whatever?
    Not even fifty dagger-manufacturers were listed to have a permission in 1938. I thought there
    were just over 100 of them in 1935. So, about 50% lost its permission between 1935 and 1938.

  4. #3

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    That's true Wilhelm, what i think this analysis will show when complete is that there were a lot fewer HJ maker than commonly believed. On one Forum i saw they said there was 95 companies producing the HJ knife, I think that's too high. As for the revoked contracts, that's correct. By early 1938 M7 RZM codes had been assigned to 82 manufacturers, but 34 had been revoked. Between 1938-43 a further 36 M7 codes were assigned but 17 more withdrawn. However some of these revoked contractors did produce small runs of HJ knives. For example M7/34 Rudolf Jacobs contract withdrawn January 1938, but HJ knives were produced. I suspect Jacobs was the victim of Aryanisation.

  5. #4

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    For your convenience. Here the RZM survey from 1938
    with the dagger manufacturers at that moment:

    RZM code M7 Dagger makers who DID NOT MAKE HJ knives

  6. #5

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    Gentlemen, My sincere thanks for some very valuable information. Having no argument with any of it that is in period documents. That said, I've still never seen a legitimate 1943 dated RZM blade HJ or otherwise. Best Regards, Fred

  7. #6

    Default

    List of NON MAKERS of the Hitler Youth knife now completed.

    A couple of quick headlines; The number of RZM M7 coded blade makers that actually made the HJ knife is only 63. That is much lower than commonly believed by collectors. I found there were 55 NON MAKERS of the HJ knives (these manufacturers we can assume made other daggers) so a little under half never made the HJ knife.

    Some makers had more than one number code but it appears that the "highest number" that appeared on a HJ knife was "M7/118"

    If you are fuming with a "Karl Tiegel M7/81" HJ knife at home, or something similar, post a photo and I'll remove the name from the NON MAKER list. Thanks

  8. #7
    ?

    Default

    Quote by Anderson View Post
    List of NON MAKERS of the Hitler Youth knife now completed.

    A couple of quick headlines; The number of RZM M7 coded blade makers that actually made the HJ knife is only 63. That is much lower than commonly believed by collectors. I found there were 55 NON MAKERS of the HJ knives (these manufacturers we can assume made other daggers) so a little under half never made the HJ knife.

    Some makers had more than one number code but it appears that the "highest number" that appeared on a HJ knife was "M7/118"

    If you are fuming with a "Karl Tiegel M7/81" HJ knife at home, or something similar, post a photo and I'll remove the name from the NON MAKER list. Thanks
    Anderson that Tiegel did produce HJ knives, as this page of "Der Klinge" stated.
    On this page shown are producers that produced SA & HJ knives.
    Copyright by Greinert.
    RZM code M7 Dagger makers who DID NOT MAKE HJ knives
    Last edited by gerrit; 01-11-2018 at 01:23 PM.

  9. #8

    Default

    Speak of the Devil! What a great find Ger and Tiegel is vindicated.

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