Become our sponsor and display your banner here
Results 1 to 10 of 10

Is it artillery?

Article about: A bit of detective work. I obtained a very nice M-15 pickelhaube, liner in first class condition, but missing spike/ball. So who used it, infantry or artillery? Markings were not overly help

  1. #1
    ?

    Default Is it artillery?

    A bit of detective work. I obtained a very nice M-15 pickelhaube, liner in first class condition, but missing spike/ball. So who used it, infantry or artillery? Markings were not overly helpfull. Hand painted in white on the neckguard: 7. III on one side, 3 on the other. It was brought back after the war by a member of the 71st Artillery Regiment, U.S. Coast Artillery Corps, AEF, deployed to France from August 1918 to February 1919. It seemed to me that an artilleryman would be more likely to bring back an artillery helmet, and the 7. seemed the most likely regimental number, but one couldn't be sure.

    I checked and found that 3 IR used the Grenadier Wappen, while 7 IR used the Grenadier Wappen with bandeau, which seems to rule out the helmet as one from the foot regiments. The 3 FsAR used the 1st pattern Grenadier Wappen, as did 3 FAR, while 7 FAR used the Grenadier Wappen. That left 7 FsAR, which used the standard line Prussian Wappen. The Roman numerals would seem to be the bataillon number, which leaves the battery. In that case, I would think its almost certain that this helmet was used by the Westfalisches Fussartillerie-Regiment Nr. 7, III Bataillon, 3. Batterie. Does anybody have any thoughts on this?
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

Name:	hgi160-NCO-E-s.jpg 
Views:	42 
Size:	28.3 KB 
ID:	113152   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	hgi160-NCO-lin-s.jpg 
Views:	41 
Size:	22.9 KB 
ID:	113153  


  2. #2

    Default Re: Is it artillery?

    DPWICK...A nice M15 Picklehaube, it will make a fine helmet either with a spike or a kugel, the markings could be as you explain, however most were marked with the 'official' Regimental stamp, however some were indeed, marked with white and sometimes red paint. When the helmet was issued in 1915, foot artillery regiments only had 2 Battalions per regiment, known in the artillery as 'Abteilungen' which in turn had 4 batteries of 4 guns per battery. But as the war progressed the foot artillery expanded, between 1916-17, to include a 3rd or even 4th Abteilungen, at this time I would expect frontline units to be issued the M16 steel helmet. At the end of the war the foot artillery had grown from 140 batteries to 1,550 !....they did not operate as complete regiments, but were attached as batteries or Abteilungen to different commands as required. In theory your helmet could of passed down the line to equip one of these 'newer' batteries, as a number of these were equiped with captured/obsolete weapons, maybe they continued to wear the kugelhelm, especially if in 3rd line or reserve positions...we will never know, is the bottom line. Also 'Garniture' marks were painted/used in roman numerals I-II-III to mark the pieces serviceability, when acessed by the regiments clothimg store (B.A.).
    "The German Army is the perfectly adapted, perfectly running Machine. The difference is that the Germans are organised with a view to War...with the cold, hard, practical and business-like purpose of winning victories."
    G.W. Steevens - The Daily Mail (1897)

  3. #3
    ?

    Default Re: Is it artillery?

    Yes, it is a nice helmet, very good condition. You could have a point about it being passed on to a 'newer' unit, and of course we don't know when it was actually issued. It could have been one of the last issued I suppose. Pickelhauben were used right up to the end of the war by non-front line troops, reserves, garrison duty, ect, so that's quite likely, and especially with the Foot Artillery manning many static positions, which could have put some of their units back from the front line. The III I don't think is a Garniture mark as its in the same shade of paint, and writing style, as the other numbers, which the B.A. wouldn't have done, and I doubt the B.A. would have marked it with a Garniture without also stamping it. Actually I've wondered at the number of obviously used helmets that were not ink stamped, either with B.A. or regimental markings. Quite a few seem to have been un-stamped, for some reason. Oh, I also discovered that the FsAR 7 and units of the U.S. Coast Artillery were both at the Argonne offensive in 1918. Another possible link. As you say, we will never know. It just seemed the best possibility if the 7. is a regimental number, in fact if that IS the regimental number I suppose it couldn't be any other unit, given the Wappen used by the other #7. regiments, and the artillery connection. Of course we can't be sure what the 7. actually is. Oh well.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Is it artillery?

    A nice straight, clean example, DPWICK !

    And as 'Oradour' Steve says, will be a very fine helmet once it is completed
    with a spike or kugel. I don't know which one is correct, but they do look
    impressive with a spike, IMO........
    Regards,


    Steve.

  5. #5
    ?

    Default Re: Is it artillery?

    Hi WALKWOLF!
    Nice to hear from you. I did pick up some genuine kokarden and a couple of genuine M-15 chinstraps, so with them on, and either a ball or a spike, it should look rather well. I got another helmet which is fussartillerie, stamped FsAR 18 1915, Maury & Co. Mainz, B.A. XI, so that's certain for the Thuringisches Fussartillerie-Regiment Nr. 18, but it had a spike when I got it! So I need a ball for it, but put the spike-genuine also-onto an M-15 IR helmet that was lacking one.

    All the best, keep in touch

    DPW

  6. #6

    Default Re: Is it artillery?

    DPWICK...here my M15 Kugelhelm, no markings on rear visor (blackened with age, unreadable)....just mm on inside of skull, ........so I guess i'll never really know ! not worried though!
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

Name:	P1010109.jpg 
Views:	44 
Size:	167.3 KB 
ID:	113370  
    "The German Army is the perfectly adapted, perfectly running Machine. The difference is that the Germans are organised with a view to War...with the cold, hard, practical and business-like purpose of winning victories."
    G.W. Steevens - The Daily Mail (1897)

  7. #7
    ?

    Default Re: Is it artillery?

    NICE ONE! It looks really well. I must say I like the artillery helmets. I'm restoring a few at the moment (photos on the 'helmet cover' post of mine), among them a nice vulcanfibre officers type made by Depaheg Patent, a Sanitatskorps one used in an artillery regiment of the XVIII Armeekorps and named to Sanitats Gefreiter Kierey, and a very damaged relic with the 1st pattern Grenadier wappen. I also got a beautiful M-91 kugelhelm of the 2. Rheinisches Feldartillerie Nr. 23, 6. Batterie, 2. Abteilung, with screw-post 91 wappen still in place but 95 5-vent spikebase, reissued 1897 & 1912, 1st garniture mark, made by Hermann Clemen. It was brought to Ireland by Signaller James Quin, who lied about his age and joined the British Royal Artillery in 1915 and was gassed at Loos in 1918. He died aged 81 in 1980. A nice bit of history.

  8. #8
    ?

    Default Re: Is it artillery?

    Just thought. I've found Saddle Soap very good for cleaning leather that is dirty and aged, and thus showing up markings. But very carefully cleaned! No hard rubbing!!! Also, try a red filter. I've used a red filter intended for use with an astronomical telescope (Celestron make them), and with a bright light I've found it throws the inkstamps into contrast, making them very easy to read.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Is it artillery?

    DPWICK, good advice...I will try it out !
    "The German Army is the perfectly adapted, perfectly running Machine. The difference is that the Germans are organised with a view to War...with the cold, hard, practical and business-like purpose of winning victories."
    G.W. Steevens - The Daily Mail (1897)

  10. #10
    ?

    Default Re: Is it artillery?

    You will see I put the red filter suggestion on the forum as a post. I used it by sitting in on the magnifying glass so I could see the enlarged image through it, with a bright light on the stamp, only 2 hands required that way. The stamps on the battlefield relic you can see in my post on pickelhauben were quite invisible with the glass and light only (after very heavy cleaning!), but jumped out at me with the red filter. As I say in the post, perhaps any red medium, such as gel or coloured glass, would do, but I don't know as I have not tried it. Maybe even red light like in a darkroom?

Similar Threads

  1. German Artillery Collection & Web Site

    In Imperial Germany and Austro-Hungary
    06-06-2010, 07:28 AM
  2. A WWII souvenir---a vetís story.

    In Aviation history
    01-03-2010, 06:58 PM
  3. wehrmacht artillery crew colours

    In Heer, Luftwaffe, & Kriegsmarine Uniforms of the Third Reich
    08-13-2009, 12:39 AM
  4. ss div artillery units crew uniforms

    In SS Uniforms and insignia
    08-11-2009, 12:15 PM
  5. Royal Field Artillery shoulder title

    In WW1 Allies: Great Britain, France, USA, etc 1914 - 1918
    11-16-2008, 11:52 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •