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Cargo Submarine U-Deutschland Artifacts and Model

Article about: Steve: Thanks for the follow-up on Mont Alto. It looks like Prusse was probably the engineer superintendent of construction on both the Deutschland and the Bremen. His official designation i

  1. #241

    Default Re: Cargo Submarine U-Deutschland Artifacts and Model

    Quote by Steve Zuke View Post
    Luke,

    Thank you for the input; I thought we lost you there for a while. A few years ago some friends of mine and I were out drinking in a local establishment and we started talking about what would be involved in stealing a submarine during World War I such as the U-Bremen. The only conclusion that we came to that made any kind of sense, and fit the circumstances would've been: if the U-boat’s crew were all killed, the cargo plundered, the U-boat taken out to sea and sunk, and its cargo slowly sold off on the black market. Sure, other scenarios are possible, but there isn't a shred of evidence to back up even the wildest flights of fancy. However, this is the very scenario on which I was going to try to base a book.

    By the way, I don't suppose you have any family or friends living in England that may be willing to give us a hand in trying to track down some information?

    Steve
    Steve,

    No, I'm still here. I'm always checking in to see what Dwight, Claas, Walt, and yourself have posted. So much great information! I need to start at the beginning of this thread and read it all over again. With Dwight out for a while I see the thread has slowed down a little so I started reading...Verschollen. World War 1 U-Boat Losses. Great book! I'm sure you guys have already read this.
    Ahh, all the problem solving and ideas when drinking with friends. Maybe we should all get together and try this. I'm sure we could solve some mysteries and prove a few theories. Haha!
    I'm sure I have relatives in the U.K. but none that I know. Sorry.



    Luke

  2. #242

    Default Re: Cargo Submarine U-Deutschland Artifacts and Model

    Hello my friends,

    I'm just sitting in the garden and enjoy the spring sun. So I thought that I also once again could upload some pictures. And here they are already:

    the first is a Vivat band:


    The second image is from a book:



    How do you do it, that you can click on the images and then open in a new window, where they are then see at the original size?


    Regards

    Claas
    Last edited by UBremen; 03-26-2012 at 08:20 AM. Reason: Word error corrected

  3. #243

    Default Re: Cargo Submarine U-Deutschland Artifacts and Model

    Claas,

    What is a Vivat band? I tried looking the word up but could not find it. Still the picture is beautiful, thank you for posting it.

    The image from the book, if you can scan it and send it to me I may be able to Photoshop out the creases and rip and give you back something you can frame.

    You are pushing me to post the pictures of my den wall with all the stuff I have hanging on it. I think you would approve.

    By the way Dwight has been emailing me about the U-Bremen behind the scenes. He gave me permission to post the relevant parts of his emails with my responses. Life has been getting in the way, but I hope to have time to work on it this week.

    As far as the enlarging is concerned, I just do not know. I just load the pictures and it works. I will try and write down the steps next time I load a picture and email it to you.

    Best wishes and good hunting,

    Steve

  4. #244

    Default Re: Cargo Submarine U-Deutschland Artifacts and Model

    Quote by Steve Zuke View Post
    Claas,

    ... if you can scan it ... I may be able to Photoshop out the creases and rip and give you back something you can frame. Steve

    Now that's a POSITIVE posting Steve!

  5. #245

    Default Re: Cargo Submarine U-Deutschland Artifacts and Model

    Quote by Steve Zuke View Post
    Claas,

    What is a Vivat band? I tried looking the word up but could not find it. Still the picture is beautiful, thank you for posting it.

    The image from the book, if you can scan it and send it to me I may be able to Photoshop out the creases and rip and give you back something you can frame.

    You are pushing me to post the pictures of my den wall with all the stuff I have hanging on it. I think you would approve.

    By the way Dwight has been emailing me about the U-Bremen behind the scenes. He gave me permission to post the relevant parts of his emails with my responses. Life has been getting in the way, but I hope to have time to work on it this week.

    As far as the enlarging is concerned, I just do not know. I just load the pictures and it works. I will try and write down the steps next time I load a picture and email it to you.

    Best wishes and good hunting,

    Steve
    Steve: The Vivat-Band (Vivat is latin and means "Er lebe Hoch") is a small piece of woven material, which was published on the occasion of a special event, and sold. This was money for a charitable purpose. have a look on Wiki (in German only )Vivatband

    Mailing the picture is the same problem as the book. But there is the same solution.

    Reagrds
    Claas

  6. #246

    Default Re: Cargo Submarine U-Deutschland Artifacts and Model

    Claas,

    In America we call them commemorative ribbons. I'm wondering if any will re-surface that were produced in Baltimore during the U-DEUTSCHLAND'S time in port. Monies were being raised for the Red Cross relief effort soon after the Great War had begun. Such a fundraiser was held in July 1916 at Canstatter Park in southwest Baltimore City. Less than two miles away at Arion Park another was held a year before. Here's an article about it...

    "The first general rehearsal of all of the German singing societies in the city, in preparation for the Red Cross benefit at the Lyric, will be held at the hall of Arion Park, the country club of the Arion Singing Society, Sunday afternoon at 4 o’clock. The rehearsals will continue each Sunday afternoon until the concert, the exact date for which has not yet been set. It will take place sometime in March and the proceeds will be devoted to the German and Austrian aid. Eleven singing societies will participate."

    Source: Baltimore Newspapers - February 12th 1915.

  7. #247

    Default Re: Cargo Submarine U-Deutschland Artifacts and Model

    Gentlemen,

    Back to the topic at hand:
    The following exchange was between Dwight and I over the last two weeks or so. I have cut and pasted it so that it reads like a conversation.

    From Dwight- Some of the information you are looking for is in the National Archives at College Park, MD.

    From Steve- Let me know what you think we can get from the National Archives. STBALTIMORE lives nearby made we can get him to run over and check into it. If not I can call, or if I have to even run down myself.

    From Dwight- Any noon positions the U-Bremen sent should be in RG242, Records of the German Navy, 1850-1945. It is an enormous collection and you will have to have help and direction locating the Admiralstab daily radio logs for transmissions received from U-boats. My advice is to email the Captured Enemy Records Division (if that is what it is still called) and tell them exactly what you're looking for and ask if they can point you in the right direction.

    From Steve- I am sort of buggered on this one. I do not speak or read German. I do not see the people at Captured Enemy Records Division offering to do all the work for me. This one I think may be truly best for you Dwight

    From Dwight- Another possible source is to contact the British National Archives and ask how you can obtain copies of the Room 40 radio intercepts for the range of dates involved. If U-Bremen did transmit, and if Room 40 intercepted the transmission, and if the transmission was decoded, you will have the answer you need.

    From Steve- I will put together an email this weekend to send out to the British National Archives to ask for their help on a few points. We shall see how that works out. I will post the letter here before I send it to make sure I cover everything. They have quite a bit on-line; I will need to check that out first.

    From Dwight- I will have to look up the so-called "North-about" tracks the U-boats used. My gut feeling is that the U-Deutschland went north of the Orkneys and south of the Shetlands since the so-called "short route" between the north end of Scotland and the Orkneys was too dangerous.

    From Steve- I would expect the Bremen to use a known safe route as opposed to gambling on an untried new route. Most likely the same one the U-Deutschland took.

    From Dwight- I have a German book that deals with the U-Deutschland and the U-Bremen, which is interesting and at times informative, but entirely without source citations and Bibliography. However, they say that Nauen received two transmissions from the boat before she disappeared. They don't give any dates or times, and as I said, no source for the information.

    From Dwight- I haven't read Edwyn Gray's book, {The Underwater War}, so I don't know whether or not it's a reliable source. Did he provide a source for his claim that the G-13 sank the UC-43? {I think you mean U-Bremen} And if he did, is it a primary or secondary source? The account you posted and the official record of the UB-43 {I think you mean UC-43} sinking are very similar. Without knowing his source, I have strong reservations about the claim.

    From Steve- Dwight, I appreciate the fact that when you wrote the above paragraph you were a bit pressed for time. I have added three small corrections I believe to be accurate. If I'm wrong no harm done let me know will go on from there. Anyway, having gone back and reread the paragraph from the book I noticed the paragraph directly above the one I included in my scenario reads as follows,

    “Early in March two submarines of the 10th Flotilla were sent to patrol the U-boats’ exit route from the North Sea. G- 13, despite her number, had lucky trip. A U-boat was cited on the surface off Muckle Flugga and Lieut. Bradshaw, after a copybook attacked, sank her with a single torpedo. His victim was then UC – 43 outward bound from her hunting grounds along the busy shipping routes of the North Atlantic.”

    So clearly, Mr. Gray did not get the two events confused. However, there are no footnotes for his sources of information. Once again, this whole thing can be put to rest, or investigated further, after looking at G-13's logbook for 5 minutes.

    From Dwight- I will check on British minefield locations, but in 1916, they weren't a problem for U-Boats going north about, which is one reason they took that route. If she was mined, it happened right after she left Helgoland, because the British did lay offensive minefields there.

    You have some interesting scenarios, but I think you are going to finally accept that the boat simply vanished, probably due to an accident. Some of the possibilities that you have suggested, such as a 10th Cruiser Squadron vessel having rammed her, have been discounted by the British, and the idea that Schwartzkopf and his crew hijacked the boat and sold the cargo simply doesn't wash. Even in the early 20th Century, something like that would have been impossible to conceal.

    From Steve- As I have said, the hijacking scenario had to be listed because it is a possibility even if it is a tiny one.

    I did not know the scenario involving the 10th Cruiser Squadron vessel having rammed U-Bremen had been discounted by the British. Any more information you have on this would be enlightening and stop us from going off on a wild goose chase, so please share.

    As for your first line about vanishing, there is a good chance that it did sink due to mechanical problems or a dozen other scenarios we did not think up. What I am trying to figure out is what was the Bremen’s best probable course, and most likely area that it sunk. The “why” we will probably never know, the “where” we may just narrow down.

    I wish everyone the best,

    Steve

  8. #248

    Default Re: Cargo Submarine U-Deutschland Artifacts and Model

    Quote by Steve Zuke View Post
    Gentlemen, STBALTIMORE lives nearby ma[ybe] we can get him to run over and check into it....

    From Dwight- Any noon positions the U-Bremen sent should be in RG242, Records of the German Navy, 1850-1945... the Admiralstab daily radio logs for transmissions received from U-boats.

    From Steve- ... I do not speak or read German. I do not see the people at Captured Enemy Records Division offering to do all the work for me. This one I think may be truly best for you Dwight --- Steve
    Maybe we can get STB to sally forth to Archives II?

    Yes perhaps we can. However:

    First. I'll contact an associate of mine at NARA to inquire if those logs might not be listed as textual content and therefore be at Archives I on Pennsylvania ave instead of out at College Park.

    Secondly. I know a number of German-speaking scholars within easy reach of the District of Columbia who will be approached and asked to help.

    STB

  9. #249

    Default Re: Cargo Submarine U-Deutschland Artifacts and Model

    Thanks STB in knew we could count on you.

    Claas, Do you think there is anything you could do at your end? We can not think of everything. We may be missing something.

  10. #250

    Wink Re: Cargo Submarine U-Deutschland Artifacts and Model

    Quote by STBaltimore View Post
    Transocean[s] ...GSF EXPLORER... ha[d] been leased to a consortium led by Marathon Oil to drill offshore Indonesia until March of this year. If we can get a fix on the U-BREMEN sometime after April 4th we have an excellent chance to work the bottom this Summer. >wink<
    How about asking Claas to contact Transocean and see if we could be put on their waiting list for a small job (probably) up in the North Atlantic? That way we can begin to put wheels into motion and things into place for when we establish the bearing for the U-BREMEN?

    Quote by Steve Zuke View Post
    We may be missing something.
    Missing something?

    What do the rest of you think? Or should I have said wink? It's a good research exercise nevertheless and one never knows what we might be able to discover prior to a possible day of re-discovery.

    Shall we prepare to get underway?
    STB
    Last edited by STBaltimore; 03-30-2012 at 05:59 PM. Reason: Missing Something........ But Still Looking!

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