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Cargo Submarine U-Deutschland Artifacts and Model

Article about: Steve: Thanks for the follow-up on Mont Alto. It looks like Prusse was probably the engineer superintendent of construction on both the Deutschland and the Bremen. His official designation i

  1. #301

    Default Re: Cargo Submarine U-Deutschland Artifacts and Model

    Gentlemen,

    It seems I am always arriving late. In post 294 (stern shot of U-111), this biggest clue something was up was in the fact the entire stern was black right down to the water line.

    Good catch Claas, more Bremen pictures are always welcome.

    Jensen that field post is amazing!! You are a lucky man. Thank you for sharing! You got anything else in your hat? Log book from the U-Bremen or chart location maybe?



    STB I think it is time you and I meet. Can you make it to Philly some time in May?

    By the way don’t you guys ever sleep?

    Steve

  2. #302
    ?

    Default Re: Cargo Submarine U-Deutschland Artifacts and Model

    Hi

    Sorry Steven, it would have been nice to have the logbuch.

    I have another book. It can't match the book you are looking for.



    It is printed in New York 1916 by Hearst's International Library Co.

    Was it printed for the German speaking population in USA or for export to Germany?



    This page is glued to the first page.



    It looks like the owner had got the book in Baltimore December 1916



    The owner has markt 3 persons on this photo in the book and noticed "X mit dem 3 Personen gesprochen" The 3 marked persons is König, Kissling and number two from top on the right side.



    Regards
    Jensen

  3. #303
    ?

    Default Re: Cargo Submarine U-Deutschland Artifacts and Model

    How cool is that! Good catch, Jensen.

  4. #304

    Default Re: Cargo Submarine U-Deutschland Artifacts and Model

    Jensen has posted two photo postcards of the U-Bremen that provide an opportunity to discuss the problem of correctly identifying the boats. Claas demonstrated that photo postcards often show the same image with different captions. Photos from otherwise reliable archival sources also do that. Let's look at the two Bremen postcards Jensen posted and compare them to identical photos from reliable archival sources. First up, one Jensen's postcards of the U-Bremen.
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    I acquired this identical photograph as a negative from the Biliothek für Zeitgeschichte in Stuttgart. The negative was together with 27 others, all of which were supposed to be of the U-Deutschland during her construction and her sea trials. The negatives had no identification on them, but one of them turned out to be U-111.
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    This identical print came from the Bundesarchiv and written on the lower left edge is the boat's identification as the Deutschland.
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    So, at this point who do we believe? Here is Jensen's second photo postcard identifying the boat as the U-Bremen
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    This is also a Bundesarchiv print without identification. However, there was a note included that said the white uniforms being worn by the crew were issued only to the Deutschland's crew. Until now I accepted that as fact, but now I'm not so sure.
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    And now, this print from the Biliothek für Zeitgeschichte . Note "Deutschland" typed in the upper left corner and "U-157" typed in the upper right corner. Since the Deutschland became the U-155 and not the U-157, someone made a serious error. But is the error limited to just the U-157 entry or is the Deutschland entry also wrong?
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    Now let's consider something elase that I think is an important identification point. I have believed for many years that only the U-Deutschland had the black "1/2 saddle" painted on her stern. The 1/2 extends down the port side of the boat and is clearly visible in these three photos.
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    Note that niether of the two postcards that Jensen posted show the boat having that 1/2 saddle. And this one that he posted doesn't appear to have it either.
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    My conclusion is three-fold. 1. the photo postcards Jensen posted are in fact the U-Bremen, 2. only the U-Deutschland had the 1/2 saddle on her stern, and 3. since only the U-Deutschland had the 1/2 saddle on her stern the white-uniformed crewmen are aboard the U-Bremen during her sea trials and not aboard the U-Deutschland. Dwight

  5. #305

    Default Re: Cargo Submarine U-Deutschland Artifacts and Model

    Jensen: That's a very nice copy of Die Fahrt der Deutschland. Both the Hearst editions were for sale in the United States, the German language edition being aimed at the German-American community. The German language edition and the English language edition are identical in content. The only notable difference between the two editions is length; the German edition is 254 pages while the English edition is 247 pages. The difference stems from the type face used, the German edition being slightly larger. Both the Hearst editions are harbacak books measuring 5.25 inches by 7.75 inches (13cm X 19.5cm). The text in the American editions contains the propaganda message the Germans wanted the Americans to hear.
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    There were two editions published in Germany for sale in Germany. Both are shown below. Published by Ullstein in Berlin. The first edition shown above was linen-bound and the other was a paperback. Both were 11cm X 16.5cm (4.25" X 6.5"). The linen edition had 158 pages and the paperback had 153 pages, but both were identical in content, and differed from the American editions in that the textual message in the German editions was wartime propaganda directed specifically toward a German national audience. Dwight

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    Last edited by drmessimer; 04-10-2012 at 01:58 AM.

  6. #306

    Default Re: Cargo Submarine U-Deutschland Artifacts and Model

    Claas has made an interesting discovery which is shown in these three photos. He spotted two low "bumps" on the boat's fore and aft decks which he has marked them with red arrows. I have no idea what those bumps are, but they are sure there. Claas feels that these bumps might provide another way to tell the Bemen and the Deutschland apart, and I think he's right. Here are his photos.

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    This is the same photo that Jensen posted earlier, which I am sure in the Bremen in Helgoland.

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    This is another shot of the Bremen in Helgoland, which is recognizable by the pilings protecting the cement or stone entrance

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    And if the "bumps" are unique to the Bremen, then this too is the Bremen, possibly on her way to Helgoland or on her sea trials. It appears that this is another example of an incorrect identification.

    Now, here are three photos that we know for sure is the Deutschland because the crew has dressed ship for her trip up-river to Bremen. Look carefully. There are no "bumps."
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    This last photo is one that Jensen posted and it gives a clear view of the Deutschland's forward deck, which is flat.
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    I think Claas is on to something, but I don't have a clue as to what those two things he discovered are. I don't think they are hatch lids because they are too big. Any ideas? Dwight

  7. #307

    Default Re: Cargo Submarine U-Deutschland Artifacts and Model

    Nice discovery, Claas! Hopefully this will pave the way for more.

    Luke

  8. #308

    Default Re: Cargo Submarine U-Deutschland Artifacts and Model

    Gentlemen,

    I finally got off my request for information to the British National Archive for the log entries of submarine G .13 between August 26, 1916 and September 16, 1916. They said it will take at least 10 days for a reply. Now we wait.

    Dwight, I have always wanted to attend one of your history courses, and have felt sad that I missed out. Then I opened my eyes and realized we are not only attending one, but we are all in it and participating.

    I hope I get a good grade.

    Jensen, when I asked you if you had anything else in your hat, I never though you could surpass the field post. Apparently,… I was wrong…..

    Dwight, I was composing the above post when your last post came through. I am just taking a long shot here, but since it was going out on sea trials the bumps may have been extra life rafts in case something went wrong.
    Also, I was scanning in some U-Deutschland negatives last night and discovered that the U-Bremen had foot holds cut in to its port side in middle of the boat, coming out of the water up to the deck. The U-Deutschland didn’t have these.

    I also picked up on a few other things, but need time work it all out.

    Is this fast enough for you Luke?

    Steve

  9. #309

    Default Re: Cargo Submarine U-Deutschland Artifacts and Model

    Excellent cyber scouting Gents! It appears that the BREMEN has those hand/foot holds in both sides of its hull just forward of the turret. The lumps, when enlarged, appear to be narrow identical fore-and-aft frames with holes through them going from small ones at each end of the taper to graduated larger ones near the top of the curve.

    These are indeed significant finds!

  10. #310

    Default Re: Cargo Submarine U-Deutschland Artifacts and Model

    Steve: Well, we are all are learning here, especially I. I agree with you that the "bumps" are probably transient and not structural. But I don't think they had anything to do with the sea trials. In my opinion, those three photos that Claas sent me are the Bremen en route, and in, Helgoland. So whatever is on the deck was there for the trip to New London. Here are two photos which I feel establish the transient nature of the "bumps."
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    I am convinced that these are photographs of the Bremen during her sea trials, and there are no "bumps.," which would mean they were added later. And given that they appear in photos taken on the eve of her departure for New London, they are probably associated with the Atlantic crossing. Dwight

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