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Cargo Submarine U-Deutschland Artifacts and Model

Article about: Steve: Thanks for the follow-up on Mont Alto. It looks like Prusse was probably the engineer superintendent of construction on both the Deutschland and the Bremen. His official designation i

  1. #641

    Thumbs up Re: Cargo Submarine U-Deutschland Artifacts and Model

    I've been following this new U-DEUTSCHLAND memento thread and wish to draw a comparison between the two tablet paperweights:


    Attachment 489442


    Attachment 392488[/QUOTE]

    Please observe two different sub images in the ovals. At least two issues do we have! Plus the quotation marks to the left of the 'U' in DEUTSCHLAND on one copy and then on the right in the other. The type is even set differently per line. What else can be ascertained by observation? Come on Cyber Scouts! This is interesting. Is one real and the other not? Are both issues from two different firms? Did they break the mold on one and have to start all over again?

    The top double-set image may have been cast from ballast scrap but the one on the bottom sure looks like copper or brass - materials that would have been much needed back in der Vaterland, wouldn't you think?

    Thanks to Rogge16 (and maybe others) for posting the copper colored paperweight. Rogge16's was in post No. 455.

    Like Zuke, I too was wondering about how much craftsmanship must have gone into producing these exquisite souvenir copies.

    Good find Dwight with your image too. With all of the great contributions we have here it is almost impossible to not slip up now and then. We're all indebted to you, Claas and many others who love this schtuff.

    Now for the pitch... >wink< We sure could use a very special someone to cast some similar (but recognizably repro-ish) mementos for the U-DEUTSCHLAND U-BREMEN Centennial in 2016.
    Last edited by STBaltimore; 03-28-2013 at 12:39 AM.

  2. #642

    Default Re: Cargo Submarine U-Deutschland Artifacts and Model

    STBaltimore: Your right that there are clear differences in the two examples. I still think the Ebay version is a fake, but at this point I can't really push that point. I don't know how to account for the dark color on the example that Luke posted earlier and is also evident in the photo I found, but it could be a metal other than iron. Dwight

  3. #643

    Default Re: Cargo Submarine U-Deutschland Artifacts and Model

    Quote by drmessimer View Post
    STBaltimore: ... but it could be a metal other than iron. Dwight
    Indeed it might be just that! And others at the time thought so too>

    Please see my posting No. 461, and especially the lines, "... the piece does duty as a paper weight but has a distinction all its own. It came from Germany in the hold of the Deutschland as ballast. Brother Paul believes that the piece of metal is a scrap from one of the big guns constructed by the Krupp works."

    If that were the case, that could possibly make the metal out to be high-grade steel and not iron. Intriguing, huh?

  4. #644

    Default Re: Cargo Submarine U-Deutschland Artifacts and Model

    Quote by drmessimer View Post
    The newspaper article that STBaltimore cites in post #626 above is an excellent example of the misinformation that the US press put out about Germany's commercial U-boat program. For that reason it has historical value, and one could write an interesting history of the wartime fantasies woven by the press using articles like that one. How much of the fantasy was the result of the reporters' ignorance of the subject or deliberate fabrication is hard to say. Dwight
    You are so on the mark Dwight about what we have to sift through to get somewhere near the truth.

    Unfortunately, the German government and even the crew of the U-DEUTSCHLAND were omitting certain details or outright putting out false info.

    Here's one for the record... The submersible did not travel through the English Channel on its first voyage to America, but they said that they did.

    Here's another... When asked how living conditions were aboard the submarine freighter and was their second voyage to the states exciting, they practically answered 'Piece of Cake Gents' when the submersible had almost been lost in the heavy seas.

    These non-incident revelations came out in crew member accounts of the early 1930's.

    I'm intrigued by the fact that the motor launch EFCO was taken up from Baltimore to New London for the anticipated DEUTCHLAND'S return visit but the Steam Tug HANSA (formerly the THOMAS F. TIMMINS until August of 1916) was eventually kept at Chesapeake Bay past September as a decoy.

    I also have a hunch that U-BREMEN was to come up the Chesapeake and into Baltimore, not New London. It seems that there would not have been enough pre-arrival time to prepare the shipments and stevedores.

    What's your take?

  5. #645

    Default Re: Cargo Submarine U-Deutschland Artifacts and Model

    STBaltimore: I don't know why they moved up to New London, but from the various government documents I have, it looks like the decision to leave Baltimore was made sometime in July while the U-Deutschland was still in Baltimore. Initially, they looked at Boston to be the new port, and Hilken and Hinsch spent a lot of time there in early July. But on 16 August 1916, James L. McGovern, the Chief Customs Collector in New London notified the Secretary of the Treasury that the Eastern Forwarding Company had leased a "large portion of the State Pier for a period of six months" with an option for another six-month period. The deal had been concluded prior to 16 August, because McGovern also reported that "the T.A. Scott Company of New London already had "a large force of men working day and night on the pier, erecting two large buildings, one to be 500 feet long." And on 25 August the NDL steamer SS Willehad arrived in New London to act as the barracks ship for the submarine crews. The ship's selection had been made in late July and authorization to move her from Boston to New London was granted on 10 August. About the same time, Hinsch abought a house in New London, and EFCO bought property near the pier.
    As for why they moved, I really don't know, maybe they felt that New London was more easily reached than Baltimore. The trip up to Baltimore from the Capes was a fair trek compared to the shorter trip up the Thames from Long Island Sound. I know that they worried a lot about security and were pretty paranoid about some action being taken against the boat by Allied saboteurs on pro-Allied supporters, so maybe they thought they would be more secure in New London. Looking at the map, it looks to me that they would have been better off in Baltimore from an all-around security viewpoint, but who knows? Dwight

  6. #646

    Default Re: Cargo Submarine U-Deutschland Artifacts and Model

    Those of us who have contributed to this thread have consistently worked to insure that the information we provide is accurate. I recently learned that two of the medals that I posted much earlier (Post # 49) as being examples of the medals awarded to the crew when they returned to Bremen in late August 1916, might not be entirely correct. In the original post, I wrote that the Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen Preußen (General Honor Award, Prussia) in bronze and silver, was given to the enlisted crewmen according to rank. Shown here:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    That information came from a newspaper article that was included among the documents found in: Telegramme der Deutschen Ozean Reederei, Bremen, an den Reichkanzler und umgekehrt, und Zeitungsartartikeln über Kapitän Paul König, Juni-Oktober 1916, File 00423, Zentrales Staatsarchiv, Potsdam, DDR.

    Some time ago, Claas sent me a PDF file containing a German language magazine article by Reinhard Banse, "Paul Lebrecht König--Kapitän des Handels-Unterseebootes Deutschland." Included in the article is a photo described as Matrose Karl Pickert, a crewman on the U-Deutschland on both trips, wearing his Kaiserliche-Marine uniform with medals. Among the medals on his bar is the Preußen Roter Adlerordnung Medaille (Prussian Order of the Red Eagle), in gold, awarded to him when he returned to Germany in August 1916. Shown here:

    Name:  Preussen-Rote-Adler-Orden-Medaille-3Form-1908-1.jpg
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    Recently, a newer member to our thread posted photos of artifacts belonging to his Grandfather, Ludwig Schwarzschild, a machinist aboard the U-Deutschland on her first trip. He was also awarded the Preußen Roter Adlerordnung Medaille in gold. I can't say for sure that none of the crew received the Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen Preußen since a company document said that they did, but obviously, some of them received the higher Roter Adlerordnung Medaille in gold and the award was not based on rank alone. Dwight

  7. #647

    Cool Re: Cargo Submarine U-Deutschland Artifacts and Model

    Quote by rogge16 View Post
    LAscorpion: Have you posted your badge on the Forum yet? I'm sure you'll get all the answers you need if you do. It looks maybe to be made by Baqueville. I would get a second opinion though.
    Good luck!

    Wow thanks for all the input about my possible rare find...I understand that while some may think this is a seems that since this was part of an inheritance from my 90yo hardly seems possible that he would of been hanging on to a fake and that he would of found a fake of such quality so long was my understanding that he stopped collecting in the early 70's...back than I feel like the people who did collect such rarities probably had more honor than those of us today...what with all the crooks on Ebay and such tryin to make a dollar. And because of his age and the era...I have a feeling almost all are real. But I will attempt to post a thread of my own to see how many opinions I can get...Thank you everyone for your comments! I really am learning so much on this forum! To tell the truth I have attempted to review other sites and none compare to the people in this site! Your the BESt!

  8. #648

    Question With a Broad Brush - How Wide Did They Go?

    Quote by STBaltimore View Post
    Paint Scheme Changed to Conning Tower Prior to U-DEUTSCHLAND 2nd Voyage to America in 1916 --

    “... She was painted sea green with her superstructure of a darker shade of green.”

    Source: New York Times, November 2nd 1916
    I'm having a few challenges today and could use a bit more help from knowing of any other first-hand accounts of U-DEUTSCHLAND'S paint scheme.

    Remember my mentioning that I had earlier assumed an application of black paint had been applied to DEUTSCHLAND’S conning tower in a 1916 black & white New London newsreel clip, and because of the account posted in No. 628 of this thread it now seems apparent, by the November 2nd account, that I was in error?

    But wait! What does the reporter know about superstructures? Does he consider the dark painted raised deck as part of U-DEUTSCHLAND'S superstructure? We may never know and thus far don't know if it was black or a dark green to match the conning tower.

    So now the plot thickens. I wish to know if the entire upper deck was given a fresh coating of this dark green paint down to a point on the outer hull sometime prior to mid-October 1916?. Was the original outer-hull at the port rear exhaust originally painted black (very likely) and kept that way while she remained a sub-sea freighter, or was it too done over as a dark green?

    Questions like these may not play into the equation for some but it makes a world of difference to a modeller (which I am not) or a timeline stickler (which I strive to be).

    While we're at it, the starboard side telescoping masts, visible in the recessed position on some of the New London images, appear not to have been painted the darker green. While this makes perfect sense to me for not wanting to strongly contrast the visibility of the masts with a sky background, it is also noteworthy.


  9. #649

    Default Re: Cargo Submarine U-Deutschland Artifacts and Model

    STBaltimore: When you asked the rhetorical question, "What does the reporter know about superstructures? Does he consider the dark painted raised deck as part of U-DEUTSCHLAND'S superstructure?" you went right to the heart of why it's never smart to trust what those press idiots write, especially about technical matters, even if it's only about a paint job. Good job!

    Q. "Was the original outer-hull at the port rear exhaust originally painted black (very likely) and kept that way while she remained a sub-sea freighter, or was it too done over as a dark green?" A. I don't know, but it was there when she went out for her acceptance trials, it was there when she returned to Germany in August 1916, and it was there in New London. I don't know if it was there when she left New London since I seem to recall that she got a paint job while she was there. But I'm not sure about that. We need to examine whatever photos we have for the period after that to find the answer. But after New London she was laid up until the Navy took her back, so my guess is that barring a major repaint job in New London, the port side black apron was there until the navy took her back. Dwight

  10. #650

    Default Re: Cargo Submarine U-Deutschland Artifacts and Model

    I have been closely following your discussions on the color paint used on the U-Deutschland, and have this to add:

    1. The poster that I just finished restoring (which I just framed and hung today {did I say I need more wall space?}) was made taking the original paint job into account. You will notice that above the water line the U-boat is painted greyish white (or sea green if you believe the reporter) so that it would blend into the sky line if seen from the side. Below the water line it was painted a darker green. You can clearly see that in the picture there is a color change just above the water line.

    2. The picture you show in post #648 was clearly taken before her new paint job.

    3. The pictures in posts #609 and #617 were taken after the New London paint job. Take a close look at the razed masts after the paint job; it looks like they painted poke-a-dots on them as a form of dazzle painting.

    4. After the New London paint job, it would seem to me from the pictures, that the entire U-boat was painted the same color.

    That’s my thoughts and observations on the subject. I hope they help.

    Best wishes,
    Steve Zuke

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