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Cargo Submarine U-Deutschland Artifacts and Model

Article about: Steve: Thanks for the follow-up on Mont Alto. It looks like Prusse was probably the engineer superintendent of construction on both the Deutschland and the Bremen. His official designation i

  1. #841

    Default An Initial Rediscovery

    Quote by drmessimer View Post
    ... I cleaned up the front [of the] medallion and... Sure enough there they are... >>> they aren't below the collar<<<. The initials are to the rear of the collar ... they are definitely the initials HS, Hans Schuler.
    Thanks for your help. The older gentleman who told me about where to find the initials was going by memory. Like I said, I don't own one of the paperweights that's why assistance from someone who possessed one was appreciated in revealing yet another piece
    of the puzzle. Good close-up image too.


  2. #842

    Talking

    Quote by drmessimer View Post
    ... on 17 November 1916, several hours after she rammed and sank the tug T.A. Scott, Jr, killing the tug[']s entire crew. The Deutschland is returning to her berth at the State Pier in New London. The white marks on her hull appear to [be] paint transfers from the deck house put there when the Deutschland sliced through the tug as she rolled onto her beam ends.
    Nice assumption but I doubt that you'll get to smoke that cigar....

    You see, the same marks seem rather apparent on the same starboard side, at the same location, just off of the same rain-slicked decks of the same U-DEUTSCHLAND as she is entering the Port of Baltimore, with the THOMAS F. TIMMINS over on her port side --- as in:

    http://www.criticalpast.com/products.../65675024144/7

    I'm sorry to say that I have yet to identify an actual image of the ill-fated Tugboat T.A. SCOTT, Jr. Has anyone viewing these posts ever come across an image of the SCOTT or read of it being described as having a white superstructure? Maybe she did. Anything in the accident report on a paint transfer? Then again, what does it matter as to the image above excepting that it would be nice to know more about the SCOTT.

    Many tugs of that era didn't have white superstructures (deck houses). In fact, those scrape marks could have been made on either side of the Atlantic by the fenders of any of a number attending tugs including the THOMAS F. TIMMINS, or perhaps even the North German Lloyd Lines Chesapeake-built Motor Launch EFCO but definitely way prior to the New London accident.

    My hat's off to Dwight's son, however, in attempting to aid with his dad's research. I too saw the captions about the collision but was skeptically viewing it as a sort of wanna-make-it-so media scratch.

    Therefore, with critical past footage as my hedging bet, I'd wager that those marks were made way prior to the U-D's New London voyage.

    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by STBaltimore; 11-06-2013 at 04:51 AM. Reason: grammar

  3. #843

    Default Coming Back to Life - Or At Least Back Into Focus

    HPL2008

    With your ability to read the old script we're hoping you will be able to help us further decypher some of the U-DEUTSCHLAND'S crew roster names and their places of origin.

    Here's what one of our most esteemed site contributors, Dwight Messimer, came up with for a best-guess of crew names using signatures attached to a photographic image in his posting No. 83:

    01. König, Paul L. [Captain]
    02. Krapohl, Franz [1st Officer]
    03. Eyring, Emil [2nd Officer]
    04. Klees, H. [Chief Engineer]
    05. Stuck, Aldolf [Steward]
    06. Kessels, W. [Proviantmeister]
    07. Wegener, Otto [Machinist]
    08. Tscherner, Bruno [Mechanic]
    09. Obeiter, Wilhelm [Mechanic]
    10. Schneider, E. [Mechanic]
    11. Schwarzschild, Ludwig [Mechanic]
    12. Mitterer, E. (Edward?)
    13. Steen, Karl [Mechanic]
    14. Nagel, G. [Machinist’s Mate]
    15. Mühle, Hans
    16. Höfelsmann, H. [Machinist’s Mate]
    17. Humke, Fritz [ABS]
    18. Hultsh, Erhard [Machinist’s Mate]
    19. Kissling, O. [Machinist]
    20. Trüchte, K [Machinist]
    21. Born, Anton [ABS]
    22. Pickert, Karl [ABS]
    23. Nacken, E. [ABS]
    24. Albers, Albert [Machinist’s Mate]
    25. Zimmer, R. [Machinist’s Mate]
    26. Simon, T. [Cook]
    27. Müller, Wilhelm [ABS]
    28. Geilenfeld, Arthur [Radioman]
    Prusse, K. (Loadmaster; was carried as “supercargo”)

    We confess, trying to get the spellings right from signatures sometimes isn't as easy as we'd hope it to be. I think the more proficient penmanship laid in on the crew roster will help quite a bit more.

    I am happy to have helped with signature entry number 20 from a couple of newspaper articles spanning more than a decade. The name is actually Früchte, Karl W.A. Früchte [a machinist]. Karl Fruechte stayed with the sub and became an engineering officer when the boat was renamed the U-155.

    Another was No. 19: Hans Kissling [another machinist]

    Both Hans Kissling and Karl Freuchte accompanied Otto Wegener [also a machinist] to Washington, DC's Saengerbund Hall according to a July 18, 1916 local news article.

    Since the crew roster is now known to us, and you have already assisted with linking information on Gotthold Prusse, we hope you can stay and share your talent with us to bring a bit more personality to these maritime pioneers on the eve of U-DEUTSCHLAND'S centennial observance.

    The Best to You HPL2008.
    Last edited by STBaltimore; 11-06-2013 at 04:47 AM. Reason: added citation

  4. #844

    Default

    The names from the crew roster document are:

    25. Geilenfeld, Arthur (# 28 in the above list)
    26. Simon, Joseph (# 26 in the above list, but given as Simon, T.)
    27. Stucke, Adolf (# 5 in the above list, but given as Stuck, Aldolf)
    28. Prusse, Karl (at the bottom of the above list)
    29. Schultz, [...] Ludwig
    30. Hübner, Johann (Hans)
    31. Horst, H.W. Carl
    32. Steffens, [...]

  5. #845
    ?

    Default

    This is a personal note about this forum, and the web as a whole.

    I have been using the the Internet before there was a WEB. Back in the day, the Internet was text based and only used by some universities and government agencies. I saw the development of the WEB from a text based system, to a graphics enhanced system, to what it is now...a multimedia hub of information and entertainment. I am constantly in awe of the evolution and growth of the system.

    Years ago I never imagined one day I could sit at home in front of a computer and delve back into history learning about things, seeing pictures, watching films and have the opportunity to read newspaper archives from so long ago. More importantly, I never thought that I would ever learn so much about my own family history from browsing online.

    Because of this forum, and other WEB sites, I have seen pictures, watched films, and viewed artifacts which have special meaning to me, and which I would never have experienced if it weren't for communities like this. Your sharing of information has enlightened me so much and I thank everyone for their contributions.

    Because of this forum, and your interest in this subject, I had family members scour their keepsakes to find additional things to share with you. Below are two pictures that are interesting to me, and perhaps to you as well.

    One is a telegram sent to my grandfather in care of the Deutschland from a woman arranging a date to meet him in Baltimore. The second picture is of my grandfather with, whom I assume is the woman. What I find fascinating is that no one in my family has any idea who the woman is, nor did any of us realize that he knew someone in Baltimore when he came here in 1916.



    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	592873

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Opa2.jpg 
Views:	153 
Size:	47.6 KB 
ID:	592872


  6. #846
    ?

    Default

    Fantastic and intriguing - thanks for sharing.

  7. #847

    Default

    St.Baltimore,

    (Referring to post # 838 and #842)

    I have to disagree with your logic. A tug boat is not supposed to scratch the paint that bad. If I was the captain of a ship and a tug boat scraped my paint that bad I want his head on a plate. There is no reason to believe that this happened in Germany. If this picture was published in America after the accident then the picture was taken here. Why would Deutschland’s captain hand out any, but the best pictures of is ship. Plus, if this was a propaganda picture from Germany they handed out before leaving New London we would have seen it elsewhere.
    On a side note, I do not believe the T.A Scotts, Jr’s captain was killed. I thought I read somewhere that he was on his way down from the wheelhouse on the ladder and was thrown clear. He was then picked up by the U-boat’s crew. He testified at the inquiry that it was not the U-boat crew’s fault for the accident.

    Sincerely,

    Steve Zuke

  8. #848

    Default

    Steve: I believe you are half right. The captain of the T.A. Scott, JR was killed but the only survivor was Captain F. Hinsch.

    Luke

  9. #849

    Default

    Steve: Luke is right. Friedrich Hinsch, whom the press called Captain Hinsch beause he commanded the SS Neckar, was standing on the wheelhouse ladder when the Deutschland rammed the tug, rolling her onto her beam ends. As the tug rolled to port, Hinsch stepped onto the side of the wheel house which was rolling upward, and the boat literally sank from beneath Hinsch , leaving him in the water. Hinsch was a poor swimmer but, in his words, a "good paddler" and he managed to remain afloat until the Tug Cassie hauled him out of the water. The information I have comes from the accident report which is found in, Bureau Marine Inspection and Navigation, Steamboat Inspection Service, File 733301 relating to the collision between the German submarine Deutschland and the tug T. S. Scott, Jr., 17 November 1916, RG4, Numerical Correspondence, 1905-23, NARA, College Park, MD. The tug is misidentified in the report title as the T. S. Scott, Jr, which given the circumstances might have some subtle meaning--TS. But since the A and the S are immediately next to one another on a typewriter keyboard it is probably just a typo. Dwight

  10. #850

    Default

    Quote by Steve Zuke View Post
    St.Baltimore,

    (Referring to post # 838 and #842) I have to disagree with your logic. A tug boat is not supposed to scratch the paint that bad. If I was the captain of a ship and a tug boat scraped my paint that bad I want his head on a plate.
    Happy to sharpen your logic. I served on a yard tug in the navy and can tell you first hand that scrapes happened all the time. Most of ours fenders were laid against a ship's hull as rubber to paint as our tugs in the latter part of the 20th century had that kind of fenders and would leave black scuf marks. Even still, our freeboard fenders were laced in with metal cabling and made some rather ugly marks at times during compression against another vessel's steel hull. Most tugs of the 1916 era had rope pudding on their bows but wooden fenders with either fiber, but more likely, metal cable fastening too. For a glimpse of what I mean, see: Stock Footage - German cargo submarine 'Deutschland' arrives in Baltimore Harbor. especially in the frames where the THOMAS F. TIMMINS is lashed on the port side of U-D and the E. CLAY TIMANUS is off of her starboard.

    Quote by Steve Zuke View Post
    There is no reason to believe that this happened in Germany. If this picture was published in America after the accident then the picture was taken here.
    I didn't say that the picture taken in Germany and then was published in America after the accident. I said the scrapes occurred prior to the New London accident as shown in the image showing the THOMAS F. TIMMINS on her hip in we know she was in Baltimore's Patapsco River.

    Quote by Steve Zuke View Post
    Why would Deutschland’s captain hand out any, but the best pictures of is ship. Plus, if this was a propaganda picture from Germany they handed out before leaving New London we would have seen it elsewhere.
    Captain Koenig didn't take the underway images you and I are fortunately seeing of the U-DEUTSCHLAND today, as he was aboard commanding the subsea freighter. I didn't say anything about propaganda pictures. I said that the scrapes could have happened on either side of the Atlantic.

    Quote by Steve Zuke View Post
    On a side note, I do not believe the T.A Scotts, Jr’s captain was killed. I thought I read somewhere that he was on his way down from the wheelhouse on the ladder and was thrown clear. He was then picked up by the U-boat’s crew. He testified at the inquiry that it was not the U-boat crew’s fault for the accident. Sincerely, Steve Zuke
    Hate to question the validity of Luke's half-right assessment but as an old tugboat sailor I can attest to seeing many a pristine (sometimes even out-of-drydock) paint jobs shot to blue blazes by the fancy work of a couple of yard tugs. I haven't noticed any bow pudding on the bow of the TIMMINS in those Baltimore shots.

    Oh, and two more things.... the Critical Past images clearly tell us that the 'possible' paint-transfers, which I will claim are more likely scrapes, happened prior to New London as the Tug HANSA (formerly the THOS. F. TIMMINS) never made it up to New London. How the Motor Launch EFCO ever got there (by rail or by outside Atlantic Coast passage) is yet to be re-discovered.
    Last edited by STBaltimore; 11-08-2013 at 01:33 AM.

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