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Newly acquired 1914 EK1 for review and comments please.

Article about: I just acquired this iron cross first class 1914, magnetic, maker marked "CD 800" (Carl Dillenius of Pforzheim, 800% silver per my research). I'm wondering if all agree with my res

  1. #11


    Most offically awarded cross were not vaulted and not maker marked.
    Is that set in stone? absolutely not. I have heard of crosses being purchased
    by commanders through unofficial sources and awarded to their men. The DOV is
    but one of those unofficial sources.

    My personal belief is that early in the war, all awarded crosses were flat and were not
    marked for silver content or makers names. As the need for crosses out grew the capabilities
    of the the official manufactures, private companies were contracted to fill the void. That is
    when we start seeing makers marks. These companies also sold crosses privately to those
    who had earned the right to wear one and who could afford to buy their own. This is where
    we start seeing the many variations of crosses. A person could choose flat or vaulted, pinback
    screwback or one of the other mounting styles. There were choices in silver content (800, 935 ect )
    nuesilber and brass . It's all these variations that make Imperial crosses so interesting.

    All of this is a bunch of assumptions on a lot of different peoples parts. No disrespect to Kay
    (he has done a lot more research than most) or any of the rest of us so called experts but none
    of us were there.
    Last edited by Chopperman; 05-02-2015 at 04:48 AM.
    Live to ride -- Ride to live

    I was addicted to the "Hokey-Pokey" but I've turned
    myself around.

  2. #12


    I completely agree with Greg. That is not opinion from another forum, just from one member of another forum. To stay neutral, i would call him very unique member, who usually receives no responses not because other members agree, just because they know what will happen when they´d disagree. They will have to be witnesses of another (mostly not one) uselessly chaotic, crazily coloured and very long reply in speech that is only mock up of english language, not language at all. One would say, be tolerant, people are different, but I would ask why he doesn´t play such fool on german SDA, where his replys are short, polite and in correct grammar...

    But back to the theme. In general, vaulted crosses were not awarded pieces, I think we are quite sure with this, but exception could happen from reasons mentioned above (or in WAF posts). The question is - what do we collect? Common crosses as exceptions?

    Ok, then every EK2 1939 can be considered as Ritterkreuz, because EK2s were occasionally worn around the neck, in the time when soldier was verbally awarded with RK, but he didn´t receive the piece yet. Every EK2 1914 mini can be considered as Grosskreuz, because it has inline loop as GKs had - and if GK owner would had ordered GK mini, it would looked precisely the same. This attitude is crazy and destructive to the hobby.

    I am supporter of opposite attitude, where we must look at pieces in general, i.e. according to general rules. And if there is some exception, it can be accepted as such, but only according to that particuar cross and only with stone cold proof associated with that particular piece. You, Danny, haven´t such proof, neither papers, nor photos of recipient proudly wearing this cross at frontline. And if you will ever find another photo of another recipient wearing his CD cross in war time, it would be proof associated only with that particular piece of that particular recipient. Of course, it also raises the chances of your cross to be awarded piece, but not nails them completely.

    But before you start this search for proof (and I see you already started), be sure you are well equipped for this journey. The equipment consist (apart from other) of these knowledges:

    - cross can be hand vaulted, which is exception far more popular and better documented than supposed awarding of factory vaulted pieces.

    - photos can be retouched. There are many examples of recipients, whose awards were just added lately to their older photos. It is because after award ceremony, these soldiers died sooner than they visited photo atelier with their new bling (from top of my head i remember one observer who crashed on takeoff when leaving award ceremony for his PlM - despite of this atelier photos of him wearing PlM are well known).

    - there are important hints and unimportant, confusing hints. "Your" argument about two makers using the same CD mark is unimportant hint in this search. If you want to find this particular cross on period photo, makers mark is absolutely irrelevant for you, as you will never see the reverse on photos. You will have to compare cores (maybe frames) and vaulting.

    Sorry to add, that in your level of (imperial) knowledge, this is also confusing hint, and Kay knows this. Just to englighten you slightly - CD mark and C.D. mark, are not the same. They are only similar. Difference is quite big for skilled collector - two characters (C and D) against four (C, D and two dots). If you want another example from 1914 era: Fr. is Friedländer, FR is Frank & Reif and Fr (without dot) is M. Hansen/Koch & Bergfeld.

    In 1870 era of Imperial crosses, the inscription on awarded EK1s - LÖTH against LOTH - makes the difference between original and fake mark. Kay is very skilled also in 1870 era, but still he keeps underthrusting you such confusing hints. And when he speaks about different makers using the same mark Fr, he is openly lying. It is not the same mark. Mark is a macro feature and in macro world, the dots and usage of capital letters make macro difference.

    Sorry to say this is the last response you´ve received from me Danny to this theme. I belong between those who refuse to discuss with Kay - neither directly, nor via your reposts. I did the best to explain you why and I hope you understand it.

  3. #13


    Quote by Miro View Post
    i would call him very unique member,
    Live to ride -- Ride to live

    I was addicted to the "Hokey-Pokey" but I've turned
    myself around.

  4. #14


    I am not a friend or fan of Kay, just wanted to give credit to where I got the photo from and not appear to steal it. I hope this doesn't cause you to think of me necessarily as a supporter of this person.
    I sincerely appreciate all of your input on this piece and it's research. It's been of great value.
    I was only posting some information I had came upon.
    Last edited by Danny Warlick; 05-02-2015 at 04:36 PM.

  5. #15


    No matter what, its a very nice original CD cross you got there :-)


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