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Unknown stamp in an ersatz helmet

Article about: Hi all, I stumbled over a rather unusual stamp in an ersatz helmet made of lacquered felt. The helmet is stamped by the 3rd Bavarian infantry regiment. I believe the second part reads "

  1. #1
    robsfl
    ?

    Default Unknown stamp in an ersatz helmet

    Hi all,

    I stumbled over a rather unusual stamp in an ersatz helmet made of lacquered felt. The helmet is stamped by the 3rd Bavarian infantry regiment. I believe the second part reads "II Ers. (?) Btl." for the 2nd ersatz battailon but I am not shure.

    I have already posted this in another forum with several extremely knowledgable fellows and the stamp was unknown there. I just thought maybe someone has come across this and knows the background. Were extra ersatz battailons attached to line regiments or why would a helmet be stamped this way? Maybe I am on the wrong track anyway and it does not mean "Ers" at all - the first letter almost looks like a "K". The helmet does not seem to have seen much use anyway.

    The stamps are placed in the liner, most likeley because the insides of the visors are blackened.








  2. #2
    pjm
    pjm is offline
    ?

    Default Re: Unknown stamp in an ersatz helmet

    Ersatz Bataillons are common. It's a great helmet and apparently issued through that subunit, hence the stamp.

    The how and why has to answered by an expert. The Ersatz system is rather complicated but it seems by 1915, the designation was the norm from Ersatz Division to Ersatz Kompanie.

  3. #3
    robsfl
    ?

    Default Re: Unknown stamp in an ersatz helmet

    I always thought that the ersatz units were attached to dedicated ersatz regiments. Was it also common to find an ersatz battailon in a standard regiment?

  4. #4
    pjm
    pjm is offline
    ?

    Default Re: Unknown stamp in an ersatz helmet

    I don't know if it was standard or not but Ersatz bataillons were raised as part of regular regiments.

    Here's a website (in German) that cites the Ersatz Bataillon raised in 1914 under Inf Regt 23
    23. Königlich Bayerisches Infanterie-Regiment ?König Ferdinand der Bulgaren? ? Wikipedia

  5. #5

    Default Re: Unknown stamp in an ersatz helmet

    Ersatz (replacement) regiments were attached to their parent regiments, and as such, could be marked, (though usually with a seperate mark), along with parent regiment regimentals on an item, such as a Pickelhaube, i am a little sceptical about these markings, Bavarian regimentals were usually applied within the domed area of the helmet (i have not seen Bavarian regimentals like those shown), and as far as i know not under the liner. Why is the regimental stamp on twice & in a different configuration ?....they have look of the fake markings that were applied to a number of 'Fake' felt helmets made in the 1970's in the U.K. & Prague. The helmet is great condition especially the interior, for a type of helmet that generally does not hold up to the rigours of time (despite being laquered) although that said, it does have the apperance of a an original piece. Can you read the makers stamp on the dome near to the spike & post ?.

  6. #6
    pjm
    pjm is offline
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    Default Re: Unknown stamp in an ersatz helmet

    The maker stamp looks like "Schweitzer Muenchen" as illustrated on this site (scroll down). It's also identified as being on a black lacquered felt (Filz) Ersatz helmet but on a Prussian M95. Ink color is the same, etc. I would think the date under the name is 1915 as well.

    Colonel J's - Articles -Helmet Makers

    The regimental stamp for By. 3 Inf Rgt would be from the helmet's first acceptance (Abnahme) by the unit. Based on the type of letters, it could be an older stamp.

    The second would be for the acceptance by the subunit. Since it's an Ersatz Bat. formed later, it has a complete stamp with Regt and Bat designation.

    Why it is marked on the liner? A pure speculative guess would be that the regiment also received black tin helmets like the Heyden model...also black on the interior doom and visors. The order could have been to stamp those on the liner. If later Filz helmets arrived, the practice would be continued on those as well.

    I've had both Wurtemberg and Prussian Heyden tin Pickelhauben. None were marked beyond the maker on the visor. But, one can never say it was never done.

  7. #7
    robsfl
    ?

    Default Re: Unknown stamp in an ersatz helmet

    Thanks for the thoughts on this! I think the makers mark is Schweizer or Schwarzer, difficult to read.

    I have handled many helmets also some that I believed were fakes; I am quite shure the helmet itself is OK but of course that would not rule out the marks beeing bad. But actually a stamp of the 3rd inf. rgt. would not be anything special and not worth faking. I was puzzled about the ersatz battailon because I thought that there was a strict separation between ersatz and standard regiments. Thanks for the information about this!

  8. #8

    Default Re: Unknown stamp in an ersatz helmet

    Of all the tin picklhauben i have seen/examined the maker/unit marks have been marked on the interior of the helmet in white or red ink/paint, due to the interiors being finished in black, again i can find no reference to the inside of liners being such marked, but we digress & could start a discussion alone on 'tin' helms. I notice that Colonel J's article on depot/unit marks do not show the Bavarian 3rd Infantry Regiment marking in any of the configurations shown in the liner of the above helmet, (perhaps he should be informed) but as ' 3 J.R.' a typical Bavarian configuration. If any other forum members have pickelhaubes marked regimentally on the inside of the liner i would like to see them, we are allways learning, so you are correct pjm, you can never say never.

  9. #9
    pjm
    pjm is offline
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    Default Re: Unknown stamp in an ersatz helmet

    Actually, the site shows the same marks from the same helmet. Perhaps they were just added.

    Colonel J's - Articles - Kammer Marks

  10. #10
    ?

    Default Re: Unknown stamp in an ersatz helmet

    the pickelhaube is original ? for me is an fake.

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