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waffenrock (old family photo)

Article about: Hello My name is Sebastian Nelson and I recently came across a photograph in an old family photo album. This is my first post to this forum, and I apologize that this post isn't about an act

  1. #1

    Default waffenrock (old family photo)

    Hello

    My name is Sebastian Nelson and I recently came across a photograph in an old family photo album. This is my first post to this forum, and I apologize that this post isn't about an actual relic, but rather an old photo. There seem to be so many knowledgeable and helpful people on this forum that I thought maybe somebody could help me.

    The album belonged to a relative from my mother's family (the family originally came from Germany). Unfortunately I am ignorant of German uniforms...I'm not sure if he is wearing a military uniform, a police uniform, the uniform of a fraternal organization or perhaps he was just a bellboy in a hotel! I'm not sure if the photo dates from the nineteenth century or the twentieth century. I'm not even sure what German state this man was from (according to the stamp at the bottom of the image, the photographer's studio appears to have been located in Bavaria).

    A good friend who studies German military history tells me that the man in the photo might be wearing a 1888-1895 model "waffenrock." Unfortunately I couldn't see any insignia visible that might help identify the uniform. The only detail I could notice was that two pieces of his collar appear to be of two different colors. At first I could only view a black and white photocopy of the image, so I wasn't sure about this. This weekend I was able to view the original photo in person, and in spite of the sepia tone it does appear to be two colors. I tried to scan the image using one of those hand held scanners, but unfortunately the results left something to be desired.

    Can anyone help me try to identify this uniform? Is anyone familiar with German uniforms with two-color collars? I'll try to attach both images to this message (the photocopy and the poor-quality scan).

    Many thanks!

    -Sebastian Nelson
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    Last edited by rbminis; 02-18-2015 at 06:48 AM.

  2. #2

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    Welcome Sebastian,the collar[Neck] is 1 colour only,the shoulder boards have what is called Waffenfarbe edge's,cannot see any motif's on the buttons.thats all I can say.

  3. #3

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    Hi Seb!

    In a higher-resolution photo that Seb sent me, one can barely see a number, cypher, or crown on the epaulet. However, it is from an oblique angle; as such, it looks like a 3 if you were to flatten it and look at it from the open ends of the numeral.

    The CDV is labeled "München" -- so I (unscientifically) posit he may have served with one of the Kaiserliche Infanterie-Regiments (3rd Inf.Rgt was in Augsburg); but that is only speculation on my part. More confusing to me is the wafffenfarbe on the epaulet: the Bavarian Infantry Regiments didn't have a waffenfarbe from what I've seen doing a google search.

    Also, please: someone tell me if the waffenrock in Seb's photo looks to be a lighter shade of grey (e.g., bayerisch "hellblau") than a Prussian-blue waffenrock in a black & white photo.

    I'm attaching a photo of 2nd Inf.Rgt for comparison (apples: oranges I guess, since b/w:color won't really work).

    Cheers!
    --Guy
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  4. #4

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    I found a photo of an einjahriger (in a Life Guard Regiment) who has white piping on his schulterklappen. Seb, it looks like your ancestor was a one-year volunteer. The difference would be the lacing on the collar indicating Life Guards Regiment, and the crown on the epaulet.

    However, we still do not know to which regiment your gggrandfather was in.

    Caption:
    Einjährigfreiwilliger beim Infanterie-Leibregiment in München 1.10.1910/1911
    source

    Also, the German wikipedia page has a nice illustration of various One-Year Volunteer epaulets. The Bavarian regiments had a red epaulet bordered by a blue-and-silver [azure and argent] piping.

    --Guy
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  5. #5

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    I think this is as close as we may get, Guy.
    The colours/tones in this second photo
    are probably spot on.........!
    Regards,


    Steve.

  6. #6

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    Thanks a lot, Steve. I'm fishing outside my territorial waters here ... but still love to fish, regardless!

    Regards,
    --Guy

  7. #7
    MAP
    MAP is offline
    ?

    Default

    Good detective work guys.

    Sebastian: if possible, I would go back and remove your email from the original post if I were you. The guys here are all stand up people but you never know the intent of others.

    Welcome and stick around. Much to learn here.

    Regards

    Michael
    "Please", Thank You" and proper manners appreciated

    My greatest fear is that one day I will die and my wife will sell my guns for what I told her I paid for them

    "Don't tell me these are investments if you never intend to sell anything" (Quote: Wife)

  8. #8

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    Quote by MAP View Post
    Sebastian: if possible, I would go back and remove your email from the original post if I were you. The guys here are all stand up people but you never know the intent of others.

    Regards

    Michael
    A good idea, and done.
    Ralph.
    Searching for anything relating to, Anton Boos, 934 Stamm. Kp. Pz. Erz. Abt. 7, 3 Kompanie, Panzer-Regiment 2, 16th Panzer-Division (My father)

  9. #9

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    Thanks all!! So did the uniforms/epaulettes of one-year volunteers have different insignia than other soldiers?
    -Seb

  10. #10

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    Hi Seb,

    Yes -- other enlisted did not have the border around the epaulet. So, if you look at the epaulets of the regiments below, just subtract the border for the regular soldier. For instance, a regular soldier in a Bavarian Infantry Regiment would have only a red epaulet [schulterklappen] whereas the one-year volunteer would have the red epaulet plus the blue/white border. The numbers/cyphers/crowns depend on the regiment.


    Also, the Bavarian spiked leather helmet's front plate [wappen] would have a silver cross-pattée with the Bavarian Arms on the plate. More info here:
    Colonel J's - Articles - One Year Volunteer (OYV) and Fähnrich Helmets
    From where I've borrowed the following information and photo:
    "Bavaria. There were significant differences between a one-year volunteer helmet and a commissioned officer helmet. The one-year volunteer had to replace both the spike base as well as the front visor. One-year volunteers also needed a reserve Wappen."

    I neglected to say the silver cross-pattée is the symbol of the reserves [Landwehr]

    For heraldic fun [this is Seb's expertise]: the Bavarian Landwehr cross may be blazoned: An inescutcheon fusilly in bend argent and azure placed upon a cross-pattée argent.


    --Guy
    Attached Images Attached Images   

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