Become our sponsor and display your banner here
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 11 to 17 of 17

Infanterie Sturmabzeichen FCL Design

Article about: Hello, Here I would like to your opinions on the piece. It can not agree whether good or not many. What the experts think? Thanks in advance!

  1. #11

    Default

    Here is another that shows the reddish/black undercoating along with some of the frosted finish remaining.

    Best regards, fischer
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

Name:	FCL S1 o.jpg 
Views:	37 
Size:	164.4 KB 
ID:	850236   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	FCL S1 r.jpg 
Views:	35 
Size:	126.7 KB 
ID:	850237  


  2. # ADS
    Circuit advertisement
    Join Date
    Always
    Location
    Advertising world
    P
    Many
     

  3. #12

    Default

    Thank you fischer.

    You've helped me a lot!

  4. #13

    Default

    Great badges Fischer and they show the block hinge quite clearly.
    However I still think the date of use of these block hinges would probably have two usage dates.

    Let me explain and perhaps you will be able to follow my thoughts.

    So FCL produced hollow back badges in the first instance.
    From my research it seems that on these badges they used two types of folded metal hinge.
    One with an oblong plate rounded off at the corners and an oval type of base plate.
    Here are the pictures.

    Name:  FCL Hinge Zinc Hollow.jpg
Views: 83
Size:  12.1 KBName:  FCL Hollow Zinc Oval Hinge.jpg
Views: 76
Size:  20.5 KBName:  FCL GAB OVAL HINGEa.jpg
Views: 74
Size:  19.0 KBName:  FCL GAB OVAL HINGE.jpg
Views: 69
Size:  15.4 KB


    These obviously are made at the same time period as the hollow GABs and PABs made by this firm.
    All are made of zinc I believe unless there are some rare variants in tombac that I haven’t come across.
    I believe that the second style of solid ISA and PABs where the ones with the crimped recess for the hinge to go in to.
    Pictured below is one which I believe to be the folded steel hinge (as originally in the hollow badges) fitted in to the recess and crimped over…note the long barrel and same shape raised lozenge as on to the next examples.

    Name:  FCL Hollow Hinge in to solid.jpg
Views: 70
Size:  19.3 KB

    So now we have the raised plate which we all know and love so well that were always doomed to fail. Note the 2 different logos one raised and one impressed.

    Name:  FCL Plate Hinge.jpg
Views: 65
Size:  29.7 KBName:  FCL Crimped Plate Hinge w MM.jpg
Views: 75
Size:  19.7 KBClick image for larger version. 

Name:	FCL PAB PLate Hinge.jpg 
Views:	19 
Size:	38.1 KB 
ID:	850343Click image for larger version. 

Name:	FCL Crimped Plate Hinge variant MM.jpg 
Views:	22 
Size:	46.8 KB 
ID:	850335Click image for larger version. 

Name:	PAB FCL 3a.jpg 
Views:	15 
Size:	34.1 KB 
ID:	850346


    The Fail

    Name:  ISA 3.jpg
Views: 80
Size:  58.0 KB

    And finally we now have the dumpy barrel hinge that appears to be soldered over the top of the original raised pad originally required to fit the crimp hinge in to.
    NOTE that none of these badges now have any makers logo on them...Perhaps a redesigned back die

    Name:  fcl hinge 1 a.jpg
Views: 73
Size:  16.8 KBName:  FCL Block Hinge on Pad Solid zinc.jpg
Views: 67
Size:  46.9 KBName:  FCL Block Hinge on old pad.jpg
Views: 69
Size:  4.3 KB


    Therefore my conclusion is the dumpy barrel hinge is the last example they made with a redesigned back die and narrowed raised pad to pop the hinge on to..

    I may be wrong and your thoughts would be appreciated

    All the best
    Doug

  5. #14

    Default

    Hi Doug

    I will try and convey my opinions in the order you have presented your thoughts.

    First, I think we as collectors try to place all makers production methods and materials in a rigid, chronological order because it fits for some.
    I believe this stems from the early hollow buntmetal examples....some reason that all hollow zinc examples must have followed due to the like format.

    But, I think we need to address each maker individually. With some of the makers being stand alone, or independent businesses and others being part of a federation, such as the A.G.M.u.K. also taking into consideration the diverse historical fabrication habits of the manufacturers varied locations (Frankfurt, Lüdenscheid, Gablonz, etc.)...designs, base materials and production methods are going to be different.

    Franke & Co., Lüdenscheid
    I'm of the opinion the hollow zinc examples from FCL were the later variants from this maker and went into production the last year(s) of the war to save on materials.
    In March 1942 a period correspondence between Steinhauer & Luck (another Lüdenscheid maker) and the die maker Wissmann spells out that regulations now require the solid construction and not the earlier hollow format for the ISA (PKA and GAB) by this time. And, the S.H.u.Co. 41 solid zinc ISA suggests the solid zinc format was already being used by some makers in 1941...possibly as early adopters before validation by regulation.

    I'm also of the opinion that we cannot attribute makers or base manufacturing timelines by the use of a block or sheet metal hinge.
    There are many period hardware set up advertisements that show several firms specialized in hinge and catch production and were like sub-contractors to many of the badge makers.

    In regards to the maker marked FCL example with the crimped in "V" shaped slotted block...this simplistic hinge / attachment method is IMO another example of increased efficiency. This slotted hinge is unique to FCL and was probably produced in-house, saving on hardware costs. The crimped in hardware attachment saved on production time, removing the soldering step for hardware attachment. I believe this is another step in the evolution of FCL badges and followed the solid, unmarked examples.

    Again, these are my opinions.

    Best regards, fsicher

  6. #15

    Default

    Also...this FCL marked example with a sheet metal hinge you posted is a fake and not a factory repair due to the crimped hardware failing.

    Notice the circled mark on the reverse. This excess solder flaw replicates on the three examples with the same sheet metal hinge I posted as well.
    The only way this solder splash flaw could replicate on all these badges is if it's cast into the mold for the fake.

    Best Regards, fischer
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

Name:	xb.jpg 
Views:	22 
Size:	109.8 KB 
ID:	850570   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	xc.jpg 
Views:	17 
Size:	158.5 KB 
ID:	850571  

    Attached Images Attached Images   

  7. #16

    Default

    Quote by fischer View Post
    Also...this FCL marked example with a sheet metal hinge you posted is a fake and not a factory repair due to the crimped hardware failing.
    Notice the circled mark on the reverse. This excess solder flaw replicates on the three examples with the same sheet metal hinge I posted as well.
    The only way this solder splash flaw could replicate on all these badges is if it's cast into the mold for the fake.
    Best Regards, fischer
    Brilliant observation Fischer.
    this is an old picture I had on file and dates from 2006. I am fairly sure that at the time it was deemed to be a fine original.

    Anyway back to your thoughts on FCL production.
    That is really an unusual timeline/manufacturing progress that you suggest and I can see it fitting in as fairly unique.

    FCL as I mentioned before only had a tiny production range (ISA PAB & GAB) and I have never seen any badges made in buntmetal or tombac by this firm (any pictures would be appreciated if anyone has any) so your theory that the hollow badges are the last production fit quite well. (Compared to other manufacturers who had buntmetal/tombac examples and then just used those dies on sheet zinc.)

    It is that production of the solid badge that I am unsure of how it fits in to the production timeframe.
    Here are the reverse set ups as I understand them:
    A high quality block hinge and hook on a plate that are soldered on.
    This is the one you suggest as the first issue 42/43 production time line…so lets say I agree with that.
    Then follows the single metal plate and hook that is crimped in to the back.
    Again this follows your timeline and I agree with that but this then leaves this fellow:
    The block hinge and crimped in hook that is over soldered.
    Which is obviously a mish mash of badge and fittings so would have been the last badge before they went in to hollow production.

    Leaves me a bit bewildered now.
    All the best
    Doug

  8. #17

    Default

    Hello Fischer,
    I have just had a look over on GCA and certainly in respect of my theory on the solid badges it seems that both our theories may be correct to some degree (according to the time frame there)

    So the solid zincs fall In to two categories one with a maker mark and one without and I will always plump for the fact that unmarked badges are of a later period due to the more simplistic die manufacturing process.

    The badge with the single crimped in plate and crimped hook and makers mark. Is first up and I think is an earlier example that the block hinge variants.

    Follows then are the two unmarked examples one with block hinge considered to be ‘early’ and the one with the over soldered hinge and hook considered to be ‘late’

    This fits in to my original input that the badge that started the thread is a ‘late’ FCL badge…

    Guess we will never be able to prove the timeline of the badge production at FCL.

    Oh! I did find a couple of new examples over on GCA that I hadn’t seen before and they were the block hinge and block hinge on plate on the hollow badges…We never stop learning.

    All the best
    Doug

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Similar Threads

  1. Infantrie Sturmabzeichen Genuine?

    In Infanterie Sturmabzeichen forum
    11-17-2013, 08:28 PM
  2. 08-28-2013, 12:35 AM
  3. Infantrie Sturmabzeichen - Real or Fake

    In Orders & Decorations of the Third Reich
    10-20-2012, 10:28 PM
  4. Infantrie-Sturmabzeichen

    In Infanterie Sturmabzeichen forum
    05-08-2011, 11:09 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •