17th/21st Lancers Cap

[Cwrenn]

After reviewing previous postings, it appears the cap I purchased has the incorrect 'Motto' on it. Could someone please confirm this for me? Also, other pictures seem to show hats that are not nearly as rigid as mine. Is anything authentic on this one?

[Watchdog]

Hello mate,

Sorry to say but I think the whole thing is bogus.

First of all, on a point of technicality I should say that if we are considering a WWI cap this would represent 17th Lancers (I know you don't say WWI but I mention it for clarity) as it did not become 17/21L until 1922.

In any case the "motto" (cap badge) as it is called by this regiment alone, is in fact quite wrong. Hard to say from the images posted (need to see the whole plus the rear) but this looks to me more like a 17th Lancers sleeve badge. The motto on any 17th or 17/21L cap from late 19th century (1896 I think) until today (apart from changes in metal) should be of the same design as the current item. Point to note is that in 1916 a bronzed brass economy version was in use. Of all 20th century British cap badges this one is possibly one of the most often faked / reproduced so we have to be extra careful there too.

As for the cap itself it is trying to be a 1905 pattern other ranks service dress cap but to me this looks like a modern "re-enactors" piece. The headband is of the wrong material and the khaki cloth of the hat itself is of the wrong weave and looks quite thin. To my eye the wear is totally un-natural and seems to me to have been done by shaving the cloth with a razor. This is something that serving soldiers have done for years for a variety of reasons ranging from comfort to appearance but it is a skill and if done badly it ends up looking like this. The chinstrap seems to be of the correct design but the weight of the leather seems wrong and the strap as a whole looks like it was made this week.

What should be kept in mind is that the pattern is still in use today and modern production looks the same in wear but when examined in hand is obviously different. However, I do not think this is a current issue item. I admit I have't seen one for a few years but as I say the material is just not right to my eye.

Well, I am sure this is not what you want to hear and headress is not my speciality even though I have worn a few! We have some real top notch "hat men" here so I am sure some of them will be along directly to correct or polish my comments.

Regards

Mark

PS I forgot to say, OR's chinstraps made of leather have, to my knowledge always been a very light tan colour when knew and the dark brown was achieved with boot polish as well as patina. This one was clearly made in dark brown. Officers chinstraps were and still are made in dark brown (I won't comment on officers cleaning their own kit!) but they have leather sliders rather than buckles.

[Jerry B]

Wrong motto, looks more like a chad perhaps, post 1922 pattern or's sd cap, pictures are not big enough to see it clearly for me. I think the cap is likely correct and is post WWII, though the rivet on the chinstrap is more typical of earlier examples so as already suggested perhaps it is a fake/copy, but I am not so certain of that.

[Watchdog]

Wrong motto, looks more like a chad perhaps, post 1922 pattern or's sd cap, pictures are not big enough to see it clearly for me. I think the cap is likely correct and is post WWII, though the rivet on the chinstrap is more typical of earlier examples so as already suggested perhaps it is a fake/copy, but I am not so certain of that.

Hi Jerry,

I concede that the cap itself might be authentic but would suggest that it would be very late possibly even recent. As I say I haven't seen a current one up close for quite some time now. However, I remain unconvinced by it.

The 1905 pattern is still in use with the Household Division. It was phased out in general use in the early '70s. My own Corps only stopped in 1974 with the introduction of the red beret although we continued to wear them in Northern Ireland and our mounted troop contiued to wear them until they were disbanded in 1995. Over time the design has remained constant with only lining and headband material changing. The technical specification of the khaki cloth may have varied with modern production but I could never see a difference with the naked eye.

The cap at the top of this thread has a headband very similar to the current No1 dress hat and I wonder it is leather. It is far thinner than that used in older caps of this pattern.

The khaki cloth just looks wrong to me and appears very light and of open weave, again this might be what is used in the current manufacture given todays cost cutting priorities. It looks to me to have been shaved as I explained above but if so it has been done badly. It certainly is not even and natural wear.
The chinstrap is clearly brand new and has never been polished. Again, maybe this is the current issue pattern but historically the leather chinstrap was a very light tan when new and was darkened with brown boot polish as it was "bulled".

As for the cap badge, the only thing in that style I have ever seen is the sleeve badge. As far as I am aware the motto (cap badge) of the 17th Lancers (17th / 21st from 1922) has been the same from around 1896 apart from a slightly smaller version for the beret (don't recall ever seeing one worn) and various changes in metal used so if there is another version that I don't know of I would love to learn about it.

To help illustrate what I am going on about I attach a few pics of two of this type; the first is a Coldstream Guards cap dated 1961 with the typical shiny black synthetic lining. It has a chinstrap that has been "bulled" but can still be seen to have a lighter base shade.

The other is my own SD hat worn in Northern Ireland in the late '70s. It has a thick leather headband and the crown is lined with a black natural woven cloth (cotton?). It has a chinstrap that is virtually mint and has had only a thin application of tan polish.

The air vents on both my hats are approx 1/2 inch outside diameter.

If this cap is authentic all it needs is an appropriate cap badge, say perhaps The Household Cavalry Regt, to make it a deecent current piece but whatever else it is the badge it currently has is totally wrong.

I never thought an old SD hat could be so intriguing! What do you reckon?

[Cwrenn]

I'll take a few more pics as soon as possible. Thank you for the detailed explanation. It has provided me with a lot new and valuable information.