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Black Watch Hat Insignia

Article about: Hi all,,,i am out of my league on these,,,need id and value if possible,,stamped white metal with two cotter-key copper lugs on back,,many thanks,<Robert

  1. #1

    Default Black Watch Hat Insignia

    Hi all,,,i am out of my league on these,,,need id and value if possible,,stamped white metal with two cotter-key copper lugs on back,,many thanks,<Robert
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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  2. #2

    Default Re: Black Watch Hat Insignia

    Hi Robert, a pic of the back is really needed.

    British / Scottish cap badges have been faked for many years. Scots badges are always popular.

    Cheers, Ade.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Black Watch Hat Insignia

    I would suggest to buy only silver badges to be sure - with full british hallmarking system (maker`s mark, town essay mark, the lion for sterling, and date letter). Never buy badges marked `` silver`` or ``sterling`` they are not british made and probably not silver at all.
    Brass badges are faked and they appear on ebay as well as many silver badges marked `` sterling``. Besaides, enamel is of very poor quality if enamel at all - you cannot tell unless you use a needle ( the tip of the needle would not damage real enamel), the trace of the needle tip will easily disclose any cold applyed color.
    Ivan

  4. #4

    Default Re: Black Watch Hat Insignia

    hi,,,here is the backside of this badge,,,many thanks,,Robert
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Black Watch Hat Insignia

    Quote by militarymania View Post
    hi,,,here is the backside of this badge,,,many thanks,,Robert
    Tool for stamping brass sheet of metal is extremely expensive.First, the pattern must be engraved in steel and then fixed to also very expensive stamping maschinery - i.e. press (goldsmiths use them for stamping thin sheets of gold - ornate cross pendants for example). I do know for sure that steel engraved tool (a steel piece 2 inches long and half an inch thick) for stamping little cross pattern costs about GBP 1000. It is profitable for goldsmiths because they can stamp e.g. 10 000 crosses and distribute them to others. That is what they do.They never order steel engraved tool for their workshop only, even if they have expensive stamping press. It is done on industrial - factory level.Therefore, faking badges this way is not profitable unless thousands of them are made and sold. Besides, the attachments on your badge at both sides are hard soldered, not with tin. All that and perfectly executed details indicates thet your badge is GENUINE. Fakers would not bother to spend a lot of money to fake it if they cannot profit from easily executed pieces, e.g. sweetheart brooches that are never stamped but ``sand cast`` with poor enamelling if enamel at all.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Black Watch Hat Insignia

    British cap badges are certainly faked at an industrial level. One of the biggest problems is that original dies have been used to produce "restrikes" as they are known. With these, the only ways to tell them apart from wartime or WW1 originals is the quality and colour of the metal used or the quality of the fixings on the reverse. Sharp edges to the reverse is another detail to look for on bad exmples.

    I used to know a dealer who supplied repro cap badges, and he could offer almost any design you wanted for 1.50 each. This was going back about 15 years now. He also did Victorian era helmet plates. He supplied them as what they were, copies. All were aged with a mixture of old brass polish and black boot polish. But other dealers would buy them as sell them as real. The market for British cap badges is worldwide and popular, so faking them is well worthwhile. In addition to restrikes many have been made from completely new fake dies. Special forces badges have suffered much from this.

    British cap badges are a real minefield.

    Cheers, Ade.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Black Watch Hat Insignia

    Quote by Adrian Stevenson View Post
    British cap badges are certainly faked at an industrial level. One of the biggest problems is that original dies have been used to produce "restrikes" as they are known. With these, the only ways to tell them apart from wartime or WW1 originals is the quality and colour of the metal used or the quality of the fixings on the reverse. Sharp edges to the reverse is another detail to look for on bad exmples.

    I used to know a dealer who supplied repro cap badges, and he could offer almost any design you wanted for 1.50 each. This was going back about 15 years now. He also did Victorian era helmet plates. He supplied them as what they were, copies. All were aged with a mixture of old brass polish and black boot polish. But other dealers would buy them as sell them as real. The market for British cap badges is worldwide and popular, so faking them is well worthwhile. In addition to restrikes many have been made from completely new fake dies. Special forces badges have suffered much from this.

    British cap badges are a real minefield.

    Cheers, Ade.
    This information is of the utmost importance. i.e. faking on industrial level. I knew it would only pay if one makes enormous quantity to make a profit. I am not aware of the way they `` restrike `` the pattern from genuine pieces. It must also be on industrial level or at least executed in extremely well equiped workshops, because stamping or `` restriking`` is expensive even for individual jewelers and silversmiths with good arsenal of different tools. Patina is really achieved the way you described - I saw it with my own eyes at a silversmith`s shop. Your final conclusion is worth to remember, badges being a minefield.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Black Watch Hat Insignia

    Many restrike badges were made in Birmingham, England. The city has a long tradition of badge, button and jewelry making. So the skills and machinery are there. I know the dies from the old "Firmin" Company of London survived and were purchased to produce modern copies.

    Other fakes are made in India. Cheap labour and traditional production methods survive there.

    It is worth noting that some cap badges which feature a "slider" as it is known, a long lug type fitting on the reverse, will sometimes feature a Birmingham makers name whcih was not seen on originals. When I have time after Xmas I will show a post war but still fake Glider Pilot Regt cap badge to illustrate this.

    Cheers, Ade.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Black Watch Hat Insignia

    Other rank's badges (with only one exception that I can think of offhand) were not produced in silver, so to collect only silver badges means that you're collecting only those to officers, which also means they're going to be expensive compared to most Other Rank's badges.
    Whilst I have only a few silver badges to officers (over a thousand badges to Other Ranks), I am aware that genuine silver badges to officers exist hall marked, unhallmarked & stamped "sterling" & "silver"
    Soldering or silver soldering on a British Other Rank's cap badge is not a sign of authenticity is correct for a few badges, but brazing is the norm, the only way you're going to tell if a badge is genuine or not from the brazing is from experience & comparison.

    Whilst not saying that the badge shown in this thread, an Other Rank's below the rank of sergeant pre-1936 one (although it continued in use for many years after, it was "replaced" by a design without the scrolls in 1936) is genuine or otherwise, British badges have been & are being churned out in their thousands, many as Ade says, from the original dies & by the original manufacturers.
    Yep, an absolute minefield.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Black Watch Hat Insignia

    Quote by Adrian Stevenson View Post
    Many restrike badges were made in Birmingham, England. The city has a long tradition of badge, button and jewelry making. So the skills and machinery are there. I know the dies from the old "Firmin" Company of London survived and were purchased to produce modern copies.

    Other fakes are made in India. Cheap labour and traditional production methods survive there.

    It is worth noting that some cap badges which feature a "slider" as it is known, a long lug type fitting on the reverse, will sometimes feature a Birmingham makers name whcih was not seen on originals. When I have time after Xmas I will show a post war but still fake Glider Pilot Regt cap badge to illustrate this.

    Cheers, Ade.
    When you mentioned Birmingham, everything becomes clear. One can find their city hallmark on silver (the anchor) far more often than London hallmark (leopard`s head). The industry is still there. Worth to remember. Thanks !

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