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Anyone Know When Late-war IJA Sword Tassel Introduced?

Article about: Title already says it all, ha! I saw a late-war IJA tassel on a gunto dated Dec '43, and got to wondering when the late-war, all brown, tassel was introduced into use. Anyone know?

  1. #1

    Default Anyone Know When Late-war IJA Sword Tassel Introduced?

    Title already says it all, ha! I saw a late-war IJA tassel on a gunto dated Dec '43, and got to wondering when the late-war, all brown, tassel was introduced into use. Anyone know?

  2. #2
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    I don't know the answer for sure but Dawson offers the following.

    " Late in WWII, probably concurrent with the introduction of the late-war sword for officers, all army tassels were changed to a medium brown. The presumed reason for the change: allied snipers began using tassel color to set target priorities."

    My thoughts are that the timeline of the introduction is probably accurate whereas the reason, sniper avoidance, is not. I think it was a cost saving measure. I can't accept that a sniper would in any way be thrown off his target by a change in tassel color. In my experience a high rank commanding officer is uniformed as such and tends to carry themselves in a manner readily distinguished from that of an enlisted man.

    Regards,
    Stu

  3. #3

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    And yet, we have an ongoing discussion of the "late-war sword for officers".

  4. #4

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    Quote by Stu W View Post
    I don't know the answer for sure but Dawson offers the following.

    " Late in WWII, probably concurrent with the introduction of the late-war sword for officers, all army tassels were changed to a medium brown. The presumed reason for the change: allied snipers began using tassel color to set target priorities."

    My thoughts are that the timeline of the introduction is probably accurate whereas the reason, sniper avoidance, is not. I think it was a cost saving measure. I can't accept that a sniper would in any way be thrown off his target by a change in tassel color. In my experience a high rank commanding officer is uniformed as such and tends to carry themselves in a manner readily distinguished from that of an enlisted man.

    Regards,
    Stu
    Thanks Stu, that would fit the ‘43 blade having an all brown tassel.

  5. #5
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    Quote by Sporter90 View Post
    And yet, we have an ongoing discussion of the "late-war sword for officers".
    Hello Sporter90,

    Is your comment related to mine? If so I don't understand the relationship. Can you clarify?

    Regards,
    Stu

    - - ------- - -

    Quote by Bruce Pennington View Post
    Thanks Stu, that would fit the ‘43 blade having an all brown tassel.
    Hi Bruce,

    Yes, it would in my view.

    Regards,
    Stu

  6. #6

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    What I was saying is now we don't really know if the Type 3 (the late-war sword for officers) is really a Type 3. It could be created as early as pre Pearl Harbor. If the all brown tassel came with that sword, wouldn't it also be as early as pre-war?

  7. #7
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    Quote by Sporter90 View Post
    What I was saying is now we don't really know if the Type 3 (the late-war sword for officers) is really a Type 3. It could be created as early as pre Pearl Harbor. If the all brown tassel came with that sword, wouldn't it also be as early as pre-war?
    Hello Sporter90,

    Thank you for your reply.

    In short, Yes, if you believe the sword we have previously referred to as the Type 3 came into physical production prior to the attack on Pearl Harbour. I do not. I've seen many over the years and the blade dates don't lead me to believe anything other than a much later start to the actual production with the vast majority of the blades dated 1944 and 1945.

    By the way, I've been absent from the forum for a time and you may have answered this elsewhere but have you a name you could share with me other than Sporter90?

    Regards,
    Stu

  8. #8

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    Quote by Sporter90 View Post
    What I was saying is now we don't really know if the Type 3 (the late-war sword for officers) is really a Type 3. It could be created as early as pre Pearl Harbor. If the all brown tassel came with that sword, wouldn't it also be as early as pre-war?
    So much of what we study on gunto is speculation and estimation that we often have to talk in generaliites and supposition. That's why Dawson worded his comment as general as he did.

    We know the Rinji (Contingency, Type 3, '44 Model, list growing) model was ordered as early as 1938, but no one has seen one dated earlier than Dec 42, and most were dated '43 and '44. So ..... Who Knows! Ha! But we can speculate.

  9. #9
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    Hello Bruce,

    I think you have hit the nail on the head so to speak. While this sword may well have had it's beginnings on paper in 1938 it doesn't seem to have taken physical form till much later. That's really the basis for my belief that the light brown tassel did not come into production till 1943 onward.

    A couple other off topic general thoughts I have are that we need to be clear when referring to items as pre, mid, late, last ditch etc. To those of us living outside the USA these terms sometimes mean different things than they do to our American collector friends. I've corresponded in the past with US residents who think of the start of the war as 1941. Understandable of course but several years different than what another collector might be thinking.

    Another point I disagree with relating to these swords is the belief that only Showato are found in the metal sayas. I know this not to be the case as I have owned a star stamped gendaito example in a metal saya.

    Regards,
    Stu

  10. #10

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    Quote by Stu W View Post
    Hello Bruce,.

    Another point I disagree with relating to these swords is the belief that only Showato are found in the metal sayas. I know this not to be the case as I have owned a star stamped gendaito example in a metal saya.

    Regards,
    Stu
    My latest lucky aquisition! It's a star-stamped KaneToshi, 1945, in a metal saya. It does have the double release buttons, though, like the wooden ones.

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