China flag

[grimnar]

Afternoon all.

Just after some opinions on this flag. I am under the impression that it's original, but a poster on another group said it looked fake. This opinion rattled me a bit as I thought I was a pretty experienced collector when it came to Japanese army textiles. Your opinions or thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

For those interested, the flag looks to be a commemorative piece given to a soldier who was serving with a unit in North China.
北支 = North China
第二守備隊 = 2nd Garrison

The flag also contains a number of slogans form 3 army officers(a Captain and 2 Lieutenants) and 11 names along the bottom separated into two groups, 東守 = East Guard and 南守 = South Guard.

Regards
Matt.

[Wagriff]

I see nothing alarmingly wrong about it.

[grimnar]

A few more photographs.

[Nick Komiya]

It is written by a Japanese, but unfortunately I also don't like the monotonous tone in writing styles. Neither do I like it that whoever made the ink, made it so watery without properly using the ink stick. High water content in the ink is a no-no for writing on cotton. For a solemn moment of praying for their own fortune in battle, it seems too casually done. Also, to most Japanese, writing in the sun is close to being taboo in Shinto, but fakers know that foreigners like this style, so they do that to make it sexier for export.
None of the above are conclusive proof of a fake, but that is the only way I can explain the bad vibes I get from this flag.

[Nick Komiya]

Here's another flag the same seller has for sale now. This, too, I do not trust with post war writing direction. That shop is like a pawn shop and just sells what is brought in without a critical eye. They are OK with old coins, medals and orders, but are victims themselves to fakes such as flags.

[grimnar]

Thanks very much Nick. Very much appreciated.

Your commentary on the ink use and orb writing is very interesting. In relation to orb writing, I have a trio of flags all to the same soldier that has been prolifically written on back and front, as well as on the orb.
Is this flag another fake or is it down to the individual writers and whether they take the Shinto beliefs as serious as someone else?



As to the ink, is there a 'rule' associated with the thickness of the ink? Again I refer to another flag in my collection that seems to have been made in the Philippines, where the signers have left a fair bit of ink residue whilst writing. This flag has been described as a lot less formal, than other signed flags. Whether that has to do with the thickness of the ink, I do not know.



Please do not think that I am trying to explain away your observations. My questions are for me to gain more knowledge on the more idiosyncratic aspects of these items, to be better armed in judging what is original and what is not.


Thank you for your time Nick.

[Nick Komiya]

I had already explained this in the Kamikaze course on Japanese pinned at top, but the Japanese have a natural aversion to writing on the orb, whether you are shinto or not. The aversion was strong enough to make them write sideways, to avoid marring the center, which they almost never did in daily life those days. After all, it is the symbol of Japan and to many of god as well. I also think Westerners would also hesitate to write all over a cross in the middle of a flag as a natural reaction.

The other flag you show with writing in the orb is fine. It is actually showing respect to the orb by pledging loyalty to it. However, this is actually the type of design that fakers like to make due to popularity in the West. Fakers, have noticed that writing the same kanji in the orb brings more money, so that's what they do.

In your flag, on the other hand, none of the signing people seem to even see the orb, ignoring it completely, a highly unnatural reaction for those days.

Either way, writing in the orb is something close to 90% of the Japanese normally avoid doing, so you need to examine such flags with extreme prejudice.

Also for modern fakers, writing in the pre-war method is extremely painful, as they never write backwards normally. So they would prefer to write vertically. They also do not like writing old prewar kanji, as the brush will hesitate at that point and won't show a natural flow. In short your flag layout is ideal for a modern faker, who wants to avoid making mistakes that become big red flags.

The last flag is just sloppy with everyone showing poor handwriting and the orb in a totally wrong proportion, obviously a handmade item not meant to be a flag. This one is probably good, but quality of handwriting is also something one needs to watch, as it was actually very rare not to have at least one person showing decent calligraphy, which EVERY child had to do those days.

In making ink, although there are even rules which way to move the ink stick depending on what you are about to write, I am not talking about anything that sophisticated. Cotton is bad for writing, as it shows a lot of capillary effect, so you need to thicken the ink not to end up with smudgy runs. Any Japanese knows that runny ink only brings messy results, so for writing important documents etc they will make it thick.

These are fakes done by Japanese, so the subtle clues would not be easy for foreigners to discern, however hard you try to learn.

If you want to stay safe and minimise risks----

1. Choose flags in silk, not cotton---This alone is the most important as silk is a war time flag material and material available to fakers today is cotton.

2. Avoid ones with writing in the orb

3. Look for good variety in handwriting and calligraphy

[grimnar]

Many thanks for all your help Nick. Most appreciated.