Identification of the clan sign.

**BTR** · 08-03-2018, 01:36 PM

Help please identify the clan sign on the ceremonial saber.

**Nick Komiya** · 08-03-2018, 02:01 PM

Read this and don't waste your time Help with Mon

**Bruce Pennington** · 08-03-2018, 02:57 PM

It's not on the list of official Samurai family crests, nor on the list of "other" crests on a website I use. You might try a websearch of "Mons" or "Kamon" if you want to chase it down.

**BTR** · 08-03-2018, 05:19 PM

it's Genji-guruma
but how to interpret this in this case?

**Nick Komiya** · 08-03-2018, 06:02 PM

The name most often associated with the Mon is Sato, unfortunately the most common family name there is in Japan like a "Smith". Also many farmers would have taken that mon after 1868, so it is nearly of no meaning for provenance. It is just a myth to think you can tie modern items to a family by a mon.

There was no such thing as a farmer's mon. They all took official samurai mon's from a local lord they strongly identified with. Entire villages containing different families all adopted the same mon, etc. That is what I meant about the legitimate 7% being plagiarized to have no meaning as provenance anymore.

**Nick Komiya** · 08-03-2018, 07:37 PM

OK, if you still don't believe me, when you find a sword with the following Mon, remember that it is my property, so I'll have it back. Otherwise the following people may ask you to return it to them as well among many many other families.

Nick Komiya - Wikipedia
Junichiro Koizumi - Wikipedia
Masaoka Shiki - Wikipedia
Mitsuru Ushijima - Wikipedia
Kan Kikuchi - Wikipedia
Masayoshi Ōhira - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fujio_Akatsuka
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shigeo_Nagashima
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiroyuki_Sanada

Here are two Americans, if you want to pay less for postage

Konishiki Yasokichi - Wikipedia
Musashimaru Kōyō - Wikipedia

We all share the same Mon of crossed hawk feathers、but not even a single match of family names among us. What you are trying to do is the same as me claiming from the above list, that two Prime Ministers of Japan had come from my family among many movie stars.

Yes, indeed, my ancestor also buried that diary in a cave on Iwo, later found by Clint Eastwood.

If some author is saying in his book that WW2 guntos with Kamon can be traced back to a family, he has no idea what nonsense he is spewing, so just ignore him and enjoy your collecting.

**BTR** · 08-04-2018, 03:26 PM

Why, I believe you and completely agree with you.
And besides, I am grateful to you for having destroyed my illusions.
In this situation, a natural question arises - could a peasant son be an officer of the imperial army and have enough money to buy a saber in a fairly expensive firm?

**Nick Komiya** · 08-04-2018, 03:50 PM

Yes, for farmers' sons, particularly the second son and below, who couldn't inherit the farming operation, joining the army or navy was a much easier life, so they joined the military in droves for a better life. Remember that these were also the times when such lads sought work in the sugarcane or pineapple fields in Hawaii, so any life was better than starving as a farmer not entitled to his own fields.

Ambitious ones among them naturally rose to become officers, and as members of a former class oppressed by Samurai, the chip on their shoulders could have very well driven them to declare their new status as equals to the former Samurai class by taking particular pride in displaying their family Kamon. Remember the Horst Buchholz character from the "Magnificent Seven" showing how much he yearned to be Samurai than the farmer he was? The movie which was originally a Japanese story captured that sentiment well. Once an officer, they were given an allowance to buy their gear, so they did not have to be rich.

Of course, those who came from a proud ex-Samurai family would have also had equal motive to display their Kamon, so there's no way to tell unless you have other paraphernalia from the same person with a name on it.