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Japanese Field Caps Found In China Recent Finds

Article about: Hi, here are a couple Japanese tropical field caps that have finally arrived. One is the stereotypical flapped style cap you always see in the movies. The construction of the 2 caps is quite

  1. #11

    Default Re: Japanese Field Caps Found In China Recent Finds

    Quote by SteveR View Post
    I hate to be a doubting Thomas but I find these caps questionable at best.
    Anything coming out of China claiming to be Japanese military should be thoroughly scrutenized.
    The cap with the flaps are not common Japanese Army issue. The havelocks ( neck flaps )are a seperate item secured to the field cap using metal hooks. I have never seen an issue cap that had them sewn to the cap as a part of the cap. Original havelocks are very rare and hard to find.
    The cap with the overly large yellow star has a large red flag for me. As far as I know there was never a cap and insignia to distinguish non Japanese workers or soldiers. There were large numbers of Korean volunteers for the military and bunches of Korean labor units. They were looked upon as an inferior race by the Japanese. The few prisoners that surrendered during the Island campaigns were Koreans that had no intention of dying for the Japanese Emperor.
    The yellow star is rusted on the back side yet I do not see the corresponding rust stains on the cap. front or on the inside lining. If this cap had been buried it most certainly would have this staining.
    As I have already posted I have very little confidence in any WWII Japanese military items coming from China.
    These are just a few observations on my part.
    Steve
    Hello Steve! thanks for your comments. Your last statement is why I have these rare caps, grenades, mines etc, and you do not. The caps I believe are 100% original period pieces. The caps were most probably made in China, but definitely not recent, (or Old), Chinese fakes, like you might be inferring.

    So in reality, and to be as close to 100% accurate, like I usually try to be, I should call them: "Pre-War Japanese Soldiers & Chinese "Traitors"? In-Country Chinese Made Caps"

    All these Items I have been buying from China, are all pre WW2. The seller is well known, honest and respected for getting original militaria WW2 era & earlier, some modern, for many years know. I have bought before from him.

    The havelock caps you are mentioning, and speaking of, I interpret as the standard WW2 era IJA & IJN ** "Issue" ** clothing. These two caps I have, are what you would call "in-country made" and I do not mean in-country made recent. Look at the construction, and fabric used, and the wear.

    Northern China/Manchuria was quite a distance from main islands of Japan, and getting regular issue Army uniforms I believe was quite difficult. The "traitors" cap is a mystery to me so far, what the the real story and history, and meaning was.

    This seller is Chinese, and He also has access to some very old Chinese people, who were actually alive, and there in the 20's and 30's 40's who he gets information from. I have also seen him on other forums posting items, and gathering info on Items that were found and does not know what they are. He also posts telling info he has found out, just like we do here.

    The actual description for the "Traitor" cap auction listing is below:

    ** "Original Japanese Style Cap Worn By Chinese Traitor"

    "This Japanese wwii style cap is believed to be worn by Chinese traitors who surrendered and served as interpreters/translator, civil armed troops, or spys etc.

    The star was altered some way in a Japanese star style. Maybe the star was made by themselves to cater to the Japanese invaders. When i tried to get the star off the cap, the star pins/legs broken off( rusty and thin and fragil), leaving some rust spots on the cap, please look

    Poor condition. I washed it. Please look at the pictures." ******


    Here are more pics of other items I have bought from this seller, so you can make a better informed decision if you think these might be "fake" or 'forged" caps. All the items were bought within the last 6 months, on different websites. He is a seller on 2-3 different sites now.

    If you know Japanese grenades and small ord. well, you should recognize some very rare early grenades. Also, All of the grenade fuses and mines are dated in the early-mid 30's. I am also waiting for an interesting very old pre war Chinese stick grenade probably used by the Maoists and Nationalists or?? I have not researched extensive on that really, but there was a lot of different fighting going on in the 30's in China.

    Here, read this:
    "Already controlling an area directly surrounding the South Manchuria Railroad, Japan's Kwantung Army further invaded Manchuria (Northeast China) in 1931, following the Mukden Incident, in which they claimed to have had territory attacked by the Chinese (a few meters of the South Manchuria Railway was destroyed in a bombing sabotage). By 1937, Japan had annexed territory north of Beijing and, following the Marco Polo Bridge Incident, a full-scale invasion of China began. "

    My items fit in perfectly for this time period. Especially the Manchukuo grenade pictured. These were only found in China, and my guess, and other grenade collectors is they came from the Mukden factory, or another in the area. I also bought an unusual Type 97 training grenade that have only been used and found in China. a sort of new discovery for grenade collectors.

    This seller was on aBay for a long time, but when the new stupid rules started for gun parts, hand grenades and ordnance he got kicked off I think, but came back "a little" I call him 007. He is pretty tricky the way he lists things now.

    There were many more grenades, soviet grenades, fuses, etc for sale i did not get, and were bought up. I know many who bought items, and they say all is real also.

    All these items come from the sellers connections he has made with people who clear new land for farms, villages, city expansion, farmers etc. When they find things, they call him. He will get new items in occasionally and list them. The knowledgeable collectors snap it up, for really next to nothing considering their rarity here in the US. He gave me the "traitor cap" as a gift, and also the type 97 grenade pictured with the caps, for buying so many items this time.

    I will agree with you 100% when buying, say, a "Japanese Officers Sword" or Wakasashi from China, there is a 99.999% chance it will be a fake.

    If there is anything I know about collecting, I know when an Item is old and original. I am 100% sure these items are very old, and period pieces.


    Regards, Steve R.

    P.S. you took my name to use here, I am also Steve R. I read a post from Ade, that the site would prefer members to use there real names instead of "handles". I was going to change mine, but the name is taken.
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  2. #12

    Default Re: Japanese Field Caps Found In China Recent Finds

    Here are the pics from the seller's listing of the "Traitor" Cap.
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  3. #13

    Default Re: CAP #2 Japanese Field Caps Found In China Recent Finds

    Here is a second flapped cap the seller had listed, but i missed bidding on. It is almost exact. This one has a riveted strap attached.
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  4. #14
    ?

    Default Re: CAP #2 Japanese Field Caps Found In China Recent Finds

    Quote by Kilroy Was Here View Post
    Here is a second flapped cap the seller had listed, but i missed bidding on. It is almost exact. This one has a riveted strap attached.
    Howdy Kilroy;
    I did not question any Japanese ordnance that you own although I enjoyed the photos. I am impressed with your collection of ordnance. As far as background is concerned I collect Japanese swords and firearms and have handled a considerable amount of Japanese WWII items, helmets ,caps, uniforms, etc., etc. I also completed a museum studies fellowship at the Smithsonian Institute in 1979.
    While I do believe that there are theater made field gear pieces the validity of at least one in your possession have a few things about it that I question.
    I have never seen buried textiles that have white material that have brought the bright white look back to them by laundering as is the condition of the cap with the star. You said you laundered it and I believe you (although I would not do that myself). Even in a dry desert condition there is enough humidity that over 60 years the color of the surrounding ground would permeate the material.
    Another point about this cap is the star. The average metal stars for military field cap use when you find them used are very thin brass. I cannot imagine that the added cost of enameling and firing an enameled star would be produced for what the Japanese would believe racially inferior people. It still puzzles me about the amount of rust staining being minimal when the whole back is rusted. I would expect at least an outline of the star in rust stain. But you never know what you will run into. "Never say Never." If you are confident with your dealer that is all you need.
    I would post pictures of some of my things but I am getting ready to go back to the Quapaw pow wow grounds. 137 years in the same place. I love the dances and comradery of Native folks. This is the 3rd day and the best costume dancers will dance this evening.
    Steve

  5. #15
    Jan
    Jan is offline
    ?

    Default Re: Japanese Field Caps Found In China Recent Finds

    Hey Steve, greetings from Finland and from the same latitude We just celebrated midsummer!

    Rgds Jan

  6. #16
    ?

    Default Re: CAP #2 Japanese Field Caps Found In China Recent Finds

    Quote by SteveR View Post
    Howdy Kilroy;
    I did not question any Japanese ordnance that you own although I enjoyed the photos. I am impressed with your collection of ordnance. As far as background is concerned I collect Japanese swords and firearms and have handled a considerable amount of Japanese WWII items, helmets ,caps, uniforms, etc., etc. I also completed a museum studies fellowship at the Smithsonian Institute in 1979.
    While I do believe that there are theater made field gear pieces the validity of at least one in your possession have a few things about it that I question.
    I have never seen buried textiles that have white material that have brought the bright white look back to them by laundering as is the condition of the cap with the star. You said you laundered it and I believe you (although I would not do that myself). Even in a dry desert condition there is enough humidity that over 60 years the color of the surrounding ground would permeate the material.
    Another point about this cap is the star. The average metal stars for military field cap use when you find them used are very thin brass. I cannot imagine that the added cost of enameling and firing an enameled star would be produced for what the Japanese would believe racially inferior people. It still puzzles me about the amount of rust staining being minimal when the whole back is rusted. I would expect at least an outline of the star in rust stain. But you never know what you will run into. "Never say Never." If you are confident with your dealer that is all you need.
    I would post pictures of some of my things but I am getting ready to go back to the Quapaw pow wow grounds. 137 years in the same place. I love the dances and comradery of Native folks. This is the 3rd day and the best costume dancers will dance this evening.
    Steve
    Heck Kilroy if you trust your dealer then that is all you need.
    Please disregard the previous post. I was going to delete it but waited to long.
    Steve
    Steve

  7. #17

    Default Re: CAP #2 Japanese Field Caps Found In China Recent Finds

    Quote by SteveR View Post
    Howdy Kilroy;
    I did not question any Japanese ordnance that you own although I enjoyed the photos. I am impressed with your collection of ordnance. As far as background is concerned I collect Japanese swords and firearms and have handled a considerable amount of Japanese WWII items, helmets ,caps, uniforms, etc., etc. I also completed a museum studies fellowship at the Smithsonian Institute in 1979.
    While I do believe that there are theater made field gear pieces the validity of at least one in your possession have a few things about it that I question.
    I have never seen buried textiles that have white material that have brought the bright white look back to them by laundering as is the condition of the cap with the star. You said you laundered it and I believe you (although I would not do that myself). Even in a dry desert condition there is enough humidity that over 60 years the color of the surrounding ground would permeate the material.
    Another point about this cap is the star. The average metal stars for military field cap use when you find them used are very thin brass. I cannot imagine that the added cost of enameling and firing an enameled star would be produced for what the Japanese would believe racially inferior people. It still puzzles me about the amount of rust staining being minimal when the whole back is rusted. I would expect at least an outline of the star in rust stain. But you never know what you will run into. "Never say Never." If you are confident with your dealer that is all you need.
    I would post pictures of some of my things but I am getting ready to go back to the Quapaw pow wow grounds. 137 years in the same place. I love the dances and comradery of Native folks. This is the 3rd day and the best costume dancers will dance this evening.
    Steve

    Hello Steve! nice to have you ring in on these. I know you did not question any Ordnance, but wanted to show you, and other members, the kind or items that were also found in China, most probably Northern China/Manchuria area. These items, and more, were all from the same seller, along with the 3 caps, & one Type 90 helmet he had. I got 2 of the caps, and the helmet. All the finds are sold now. Who knows when he will get more. HaHa, maybe when they are done making, and aging the reproductions.

    OK, sorry, First the problem is, I like to talk a lot, and it carries over to my email, and posts. I am very detail oriented, and ramble sometimes when I make posts, I try to be as accurate as possible, but do make errors sometimes.

    I am new to forums, I understand better now that if my posts, and in fact, that if all posts are not *Read Very Carefully* especially if people just look at the pictures, (not that you did that) they can get lost in what I am saying, and the details. And then there is also the language problems with some members.

    I did not say I washed the caps, the seller did. I do not touch things like these, although I did steam the havelock-flaps on the cap, so they would lay better for display, and added the tie strings, and re attached the metal star. So I do not think that I harmed, or ruined the pieces in any way by doing this. Some may think so.

    In the very beginning of thread I said, if it was ground found, I thought it must have been in some kind of box or container. There is rust where the star was. If the star broke off the cap as he states in the listing when he tried to wash it, then it must have been attached all this time.

    There is rust on the inside and outside where the small ring was attached. If you look close at the pic of outside at the 7 O' clock position from the holes where the ring went through, there is a rust mark that matches perfect with the star.

    Do you know how famous the Chinese are for laundry?
    "Chinese Laundry" Maybe they got the rust stains out? HaHa,
    Now I think "that" is funny.
    Note* No Offense to any One

    I really did not think I would get a response questioning the authenticity of these caps. Just look at them, and the other I posted that is slightly different. Why would they spend the time to make such a good fakes if they were going to sell them for next to nothing? If they are fake, they are the best fakes I have seen. These 3 caps are the only ones ever offered by the seller, and only one's I have ever come across.

    If traitor cap is fake, and they made one cap only, don't you think they would try to get a fortune for it? If they took the time to make more than one cap, or many of them, don't you think someone would have seen these "traitor caps" before?

    Yes I do completely trust this seller. I will not mention name, but is you have ever looked for Japanese items on the infamous ePay site, (the one run by idiots now) you would probably know who the seller is. He has been a seller for at least 5-6 years that I know of.

    I know exactly what you mean about your feelings of "buying things from China" This is rare to find an honest militaria seller there, but there are a couple.

    That's good though, I was hoping maybe for a fairly robust thread, because I also, like you, have never seen this exact havelock cap before, and definitely have never seen any of these "Traitor" caps.
    As said these are much earlier than WW2, and I think western collectors do not know too much about these early uniforms, and Exactly what Japanese army procedures, different variations of caps, uniforms and meanings, there in Manchukuo/Manchuria in very early 30's. We are all pretty familiar with their other procedures & regs. of violence and foul play.

    I wanted to know more concrete facts of this odd hat, if anybody had some possibly. Maybe I can try Banzai or other sites Might probably be a place to get more info on this "traitor cap". I also am having my seller friend try to find out more, or maybe find something that is written about them, that is from the period.

    If these stories and theories prove to be true, I think this traitor cap, is a fairly significant find & artifact.

    Regards, Steve "R"


    P.S.
    *** Steve, I have read some threads started by you, before replying. You do excellent beadwork, very nice looking, high quality. I heard that you have to be even less % now, to be considered a Native American? I have always liked NA items, I have some nice old items that my parents collected in the 50's-70's. Maybe I can send you some pics?? I could use a little help with a couple items, if you have the time, and knowledge of them. Can I PM you about this?

    I like the post you made about the biker/chrome & LW helmet, and the first I believe, 2 Nambu's. HaHa, I have been riding since 8-9 yrs old. I still have my '87 fxrs. I bought it new. It's the only vehicle I ever bought brand new, runs/looks good still. Pretty good riding here in FL. I have seen many chromed nazi helmets, grenades etc. over the years, never a paratroop good save!!! great helmet!! I mean really great helmet, looks like textbook example. In fact all your items do. I like the KM swordfish hat also, very nice!

    I also have good stories of ugly bartenders , VFW's, garage and estate sales, and the treasures found. Isn't America great??

    Regards, Steve "R"
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  8. #18

    Default Re: Japanese Field Caps Found In China Recent Finds

    Quote by Jan View Post
    Hey Steve, greetings from Finland and from the same latitude We just celebrated midsummer!

    Rgds Jan
    Hi Jan, Happy summer to you. We just started summer June 21. Greetings from Florida!

    Regards, Steve

  9. #19

    Default Re: CAP #2 Japanese Field Caps Found In China Recent Finds

    Quote by SteveR View Post
    Heck Kilroy if you trust your dealer then that is all you need.
    Please disregard the previous post. I was going to delete it but waited to long.
    Steve
    Steve
    OK, Sure, the whole thing disregarded and dropped. I will leave the reply I just made, in case anybody else has any interest in this topic.

    Regards, Steve

  10. #20
    ?

    Default Re: CAP #2 Japanese Field Caps Found In China Recent Finds

    Quote by Kilroy Was Here View Post
    Hello Steve! nice to have you ring in on these. I know you did not question any Ordnance, but wanted to show you, and other members, the kind or items that were also found in China, most probably Northern China/Manchuria area. These items, and more, were all from the same seller, along with the 3 caps, & one Type 90 helmet he had. I got 2 of the caps, and the helmet. All the finds are sold now. Who knows when he will get more. HaHa, maybe when they are done making, and aging the reproductions.

    OK, sorry, First the problem is, I like to talk a lot, and it carries over to my email, and posts. I am very detail oriented, and ramble sometimes when I make posts, I try to be as accurate as possible, but do make errors sometimes.

    I am new to forums, I understand better now that if my posts, and in fact, that if all posts are not *Read Very Carefully* especially if people just look at the pictures, (not that you did that) they can get lost in what I am saying, and the details. And then there is also the language problems with some members.

    I did not say I washed the caps, the seller did. I do not touch things like these, although I did steam the havelock-flaps on the cap, so they would lay better for display, and added the tie strings, and re attached the metal star. So I do not think that I harmed, or ruined the pieces in any way by doing this. Some may think so.

    In the very beginning of thread I said, if it was ground found, I thought it must have been in some kind of box or container. There is rust where the star was. If the star broke off the cap as he states in the listing when he tried to wash it, then it must have been attached all this time.

    There is rust on the inside and outside where the small ring was attached. If you look close at the pic of outside at the 7 O' clock position from the holes where the ring went through, there is a rust mark that matches perfect with the star.

    Do you know how famous the Chinese are for laundry?
    "Chinese Laundry" Maybe they got the rust stains out? HaHa,
    Now I think "that" is funny.
    Note* No Offense to any One

    I really did not think I would get a response questioning the authenticity of these caps. Just look at them, and the other I posted that is slightly different. Why would they spend the time to make such a good fakes if they were going to sell them for next to nothing? If they are fake, they are the best fakes I have seen. These 3 caps are the only ones ever offered by the seller, and only one's I have ever come across.

    If traitor cap is fake, and they made one cap only, don't you think they would try to get a fortune for it? If they took the time to make more than one cap, or many of them, don't you think someone would have seen these "traitor caps" before?

    Yes I do completely trust this seller. I will not mention name, but is you have ever looked for Japanese items on the infamous ePay site, (the one run by idiots now) you would probably know who the seller is. He has been a seller for at least 5-6 years that I know of.

    I know exactly what you mean about your feelings of "buying things from China" This is rare to find an honest militaria seller there, but there are a couple.

    That's good though, I was hoping maybe for a fairly robust thread, because I also, like you, have never seen this exact havelock cap before, and definitely have never seen any of these "Traitor" caps.
    As said these are much earlier than WW2, and I think western collectors do not know too much about these early uniforms, and Exactly what Japanese army procedures, different variations of caps, uniforms and meanings, there in Manchukuo/Manchuria in very early 30's. We are all pretty familiar with their other procedures & regs. of violence and foul play.

    I wanted to know more concrete facts of this odd hat, if anybody had some possibly. Maybe I can try Banzai or other sites Might probably be a place to get more info on this "traitor cap". I also am having my seller friend try to find out more, or maybe find something that is written about them, that is from the period.

    If these stories and theories prove to be true, I think this traitor cap, is a fairly significant find & artifact.

    Regards, Steve "R"


    P.S.
    *** Steve, I have read some threads started by you, before replying. You do excellent beadwork, very nice looking, high quality. I heard that you have to be even less % now, to be considered a Native American? I have always liked NA items, I have some nice old items that my parents collected in the 50's-70's. Maybe I can send you some pics?? I could use a little help with a couple items, if you have the time, and knowledge of them. Can I PM you about this?

    I like the post you made about the biker/chrome & LW helmet, and the first I believe, 2 Nambu's. HaHa, I have been riding since 8-9 yrs old. I still have my '87 fxrs. I bought it new. It's the only vehicle I ever bought brand new, runs/looks good still. Pretty good riding here in FL. I have seen many chromed nazi helmets, grenades etc. over the years, never a paratroop good save!!! great helmet!! I mean really great helmet, looks like textbook example. In fact all your items do. I like the KM swordfish hat also, very nice!

    I also have good stories of ugly bartenders , VFW's, garage and estate sales, and the treasures found. Isn't America great??

    Regards, Steve "R"
    Sure PM me. I will help if I can.

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