Normally this is recognize for nlf troops but after all this new information it not is more sure, can be this tunic a generic navy uniform? Very interesting the navy black shoes in the pictureby RussM
Normally this is recognize for nlf troops but after all this new information it not is more sure, can be this tunic a generic navy uniform? Very interesting the navy black shoes in the picture
The 3 button tunics I’ve seen for sale did not have the shoulder boards like these two. They were all up for sale as NLF tunics.
Regards
Russ
Shanghai Special Naval Land Force
I know some of you guys are interested in the SNLF.
A collector I know in Hong Kong sent me these images. Someone bought them and was showing them off on Facebook, so my HK contact passed the images along to me because of my interest in jukenjutsu.
The bayonet fencing [jūkenjutsu] 1st level black belt certificate is to Seaman First Class Suzuki:
海軍一等水兵鈴木勇
Navy Seaman First Class Suzuki Isamu
銃剣術初段
Jūkenjutsu Shodan
昭和十二年二月十五日
Showa 12th Year [1937], February 15th
Signed by
上海海軍特別陸戦隊司令官
Shanghai Navy Special Land Force Corps Commander
海軍少将大川内博七
Kaigun-shōshō Ōkawachi Denshichi [Hiroshichi?]
Navy Rear Admiral Ōkawachi Denshichi
The wiki article says his name is "Denshichi", but I wonder if it is actually Hiroshichi? He was the SNLF commander from 1936
The photos show Seaman Suzuki with his unit and with a couple of training partners.
These are the only photos I have ... so do not send me requests for "more, bigger, better". (^__^)
--Guy
Wiki:
1936年、上海の日本租界の警備にあたる上海海軍特別陸戦隊の司令官に就任。在職中の翌1937年に日中 戦争が勃発した。国際都市である上海を重視する中国国民党軍は、上海駐留の日本軍が手薄な状態なのに乗じて 攻撃をかけた（第二次上海事変）。中国軍は、日本軍の戦力を二分する作戦を採用し、日本租界を包囲して特に 海軍陸戦隊本部に集中攻撃をかけた。大川内は多勢の中国軍を相手に少数の将兵をもって善戦し、上海派遣軍が 来援するまでの約3ヶ月間猛攻撃に耐えた。
Google Translate says:
In 1936 he took over as the commander of the Shanghai Navy Special Land Force Corps serving Shanghai's Japanese concession guard. The Japan - China war broke out in 1937, the next year in office. The Chinese KMT Army, which placed importance on Shanghai -- an international city -- multiplied by the Japanese army stationed in Shanghai in a state of weakness (2nd Shanghai Incident). The Chinese Army adopted a strategy to halve the strength of the Japanese army, besieged the Japanese concession and especially concentrated on the Navy Fighting Headquarters headquarters. Ohkawauchi fought well with a number of Chinese soldiers with a few soldiers and endured the onslaught for about three months until the Shanghai dispatch troops came.
Interesting set. I think the Shanghai SNLF used that motor pool area a lot for pics. Here is a member of the Shanghai SNLF in what looks like the same car bay area.
Respectfully, any aviator is going to look down on a grunt with disdain. Any aviator is going to consider the infantry less then dirt cannon fodder. A unit that is considered punishment/penal by everyone else with criminal/sub intelligent members equipped with older, used, sub standard equipment....Sounds a lot like the United States Marine Corps. The SNLF also fielded non elite airborne units? In the book 'So Sad to Fall in Battle' it is mentioned many times the great success Kuribayashi is able to deliver with perceived sub standard conscripts.
To me, that single quote sounds more like fear than contempt...
With respect to Nick, one quote that took a long time to find, doesn’t sound like evidence enough.
Bob
The quote was not meant as evidence, as it is only from a work of fiction anyway. It was only meant to show the Japanese perception of the Rikusentai from a Japanese source easily accessible to those who cannot read Japanese.
Any organisation whether military or modern business has an internal pecking order for resource, budget and personnel distribution, which is unavoidable so long as there are primary, secondary and tertiary functions. Usually departments that bring sales income have the strongest say and esteem within companies. Those like general affairs responsible for office support and maintenance are always positioned low on the totem pole. That is simple universal common sense and to think that the military was any different is folly. The Navy had its pecking order and the Rikusentai happened to be at the bottom of this food chain. That is all there is to it, a simple fact of organizational life.
For an outsider, it is not easy to know the quickest way up the corporate ladder within a certain company, but there are always courses set for expedited advancement. This you can only learn from Japanese sources in case of the IJN. By the same token, the ladder down to the basement floors is also found only in internal maps not obvious to the outside world.
I don't know anything about the US Marines, but for the comparison to be valid, it has to be comparisons between two branches of the same service. Thus for the comparison to be valid, the Navy aviators and marines must be part of the same organisation (Navy) and share the same pool of human resources. If you are saying that of the US Navy recruits, those with high scores became aviators and those at the bottom got assigned to the Marines, and further that aviators flunking in their jobs got demoted to the Marines, yes, that is a valid comparison, but otherwise you are comparing Apple to Microsoft, which has no relevance to the NLF's position.
It was not I who drew a comparison with the US Marines, though I certainly hold with Razorback’s comments and believe he makes the point very succinctly. Non-elite paratroopers are, indeed, an interesting concept.
Personally, I am not fussed about any ‘elitism’ and have always favoured the average. I would be quite happy to accept the notion that the NLF/SNLF were not so special - though photographic and documentary evidence from those who fought against them certainly suggests otherwise.
I am well aware of how any flyboy looks down on ground troops, no matter what their status or specialty, while feeling a whole lot more fortunate in their (generally) more comfortable, cleaner lives and environment.
My point was not to compare the United States Marine Corp (an independent combined arms branch) To the SNLF as equal capability fighting units. I was looking to compare the perception of the two. That perception being very similar. The USMC has always been looked down on by all other branches of the United States military. Especially the United States Navy. They have always been given old hand me down sub-standard equipment. They used a lot of WW2 & Vietnam era equipment well into the late 1980's. Their members have always been held in low regard as UN intelligent, UN imaginative, criminals. In this case though perception is not reality. History validates this over and over again. Those flaws fall right in line with your list of reasons why SNLF units are perceived as sub standard. Again, imo this perception is not reality. Those were not 'ersatz battalions' that took mass amounts of naval gunfire and airpower (including many a 16 inch shell) to root out on Tarawa. Not to mention many many United States Marines lives. Those were not sub standard troops who sent 2 Marine Raider battalions reeling in a retreat on New Georgia. The period U.S. intelligence mentions in print the quality of the early Navy ground troops. With a noticeable drop off in quality coming later in the war. This conclusion was not formulated by someone's perception. It was formulated with lessons learned in blood. This conclusion was reached with the reality of what it was like for the guys who had fought them toe to toe. I personally have known many of them. They would have all told you that the SNLF was a handful to deal with. That the SNLF were units to be feared. I knew about them at a very young age from hearing about their bravery and elan straight from the proverbial horses mouth. That is why I have always collected that area. These weren't fans. These weren't collectors. These were men who hated their guts till death. Yet they respected them enough to remember their adversaries deeds decades after the fact with begrudged admiration. The proof is there if you let go of the perception.
Now we are mixing up perception and the facts behind organisational intent.
Let me clarify once more what need the NLF was created to fill within the navy's design.
The main mandate for the navy was to keep sealanes clear for army logistics and it was the army that was to stage landings and take the land objectives. Thus, it was the ship crews and aviators, who were expected to take on the main role of keeping the sealanes clear. This naturally required naval bases and airfields to be located at strategic points and these strategic points needed to be guarded and defended, for which the NLF were conceived.
In a company comparison, the flyers and ship crews were the navy's income earners and the NLF were the night watchmen for the product warehouses. As this was the grand design, personnel allocation assigned first rate recruits to aviation and ship crews. Ship crews and aviators were basically on a equal footing, and ship crews, who wanted to become flyers were allowed to enroll into the aviation program by passing a test.
But for a night watchman's position, nowadays a company won't even bother to assign it's own people to such a tertiary role and will hire a security company. But the IJN did not have such luxury, so they assigned third rate people to serve a tertiary function. As they were land-based troops, key people got sent to the army to receive combat training. And when the navy formed their own paratroops, they naturally drew from the pre-existing NLF as they were the only naval resources trained for land fighting.
Anyway, by design, the NLF like the Volkstrum, were rear area troops that were not supposed to have much contact with the enemy, so long as the ship and plane crews were delivering what they were supposed to and the army fulfilled their mandate as planned. But we all know that the tide had reversed and in the end, what was the rear line had to become the front line. Thus circumstance forced the night watchmen to fight at the frontlines, and these the American's found to be tenacious and fierce fighters like the cop in the wrong place at the wrong time in the "Die Hard" films.
What the IJN intended to be their third rate troops still were capable of putting up a good fight as perceived by the invading Americans. Even third rated troops were trained to stick to their roles until death, so there was no reason they should not put up a good fight.
The Americans collectors like to see the NLF like a John McClane figure and I'm just trying to make you aware that he was just a NYPD cop, not special forces. What American collectors need to know is that only looking at one side of the coin is misleading.
Last edited by Nick Komiya; 08-12-2018 at 11:00 AM.
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