Type 98 Shingunto assistance

**dunit35** · 08-01-2017, 04:26 AM

I'm looking at adding a type 98 shin gunto to my collection and was wanting further assistance. I've spoken to Bruce about it and I'm curious if these two are handmade or machine made blades.

What do the experts think of these?

**dunit35** · 08-01-2017, 04:31 AM

This is #2.

**Shamsy** · 08-01-2017, 04:38 AM

The first sword has a Seki stamp that proves machine made. Cloudy hamon too which shows oil quench. Absolutely no jigane.

Second sword needs nakago translation to determine who smith is. Cannot see any real activity. No jiagne to the steel (but that can be hard to capture in a photo and this clearly does not have correctly set lighting), can't make out any nie or nioi in the hamon. Nakago lacks aged patina. Active rust. Looks like gunto.

Nice gunto mind!

**BOB COLEMAN** · 08-01-2017, 04:46 AM

The niji mei on sword #2 is Nagamitsu

**dunit35** · 08-01-2017, 05:03 AM

Thanks Bob.

I'm guessing the second one is machine made as well?

Any significance of the swordsmiths?

**Bruce Pennington** · 08-01-2017, 05:18 AM

Just for clarity, the term "machine made" is shorthand for "not made by traditional methods." No war swords were made by machine. They were made by people. Some of them used hydraulic hammers, instead of apprentices using sledgehammers, but that was the only machine used. Yes, NCO blades were rolled or pressed, but officer swords were not. A smith may have done everything the traditional way, but if he usded non-tamahagane steel, or oil quenched it - it's non-traditional.

Here is a list of all the ways a blade could be made during the war:
1. Tamahagane gendaito. Fully hand forged and differentially hardened in the traditional manner using water as a quenching agent. Possesses an active hamon and hada.

2. Mill-steel gendaito. Fully hand forged from mill steel or (more often) 19th century railway tracks made from Swedish steel. Differentially hardened in the traditional manner using water as a quenching agent. Possesses an active hamon and hada.

3. Koa-isshin Mantetsu-to. Made from Manchurian steel by a special process. Partly forged, partly engineered, and differentially hardened in the traditional manner using water as a quenching agent. Possesses an active hamon and hada.

4. Han-tanren abura yaki-ire-to. Partially forged from mill stock, some folding, differentially hardened using oil. Does have a hamon although it is nowhere near as active as a water-quenched sword, but lacks hada.

5. Sunobe abura yaki-ire-to. Drawn down, forged to shape, not folded. Differential hardened using oil, may have a fairly inactive hamon, but no hada.

6. Mantetsu-to. Rolled from Manchurian railway tracks. Differential hardening using oil, may have a fairly inactive hamon, but no hada.

7. Murata-to. Rolled or drawn, oil hardened but not differentially hardened. Yakiba but no visible hamon and no hada.

8. Tai-sabi-ko. Stainless steel, oil-hardened, no grain, no hamon, possible yakiba. Made for the Imperial Japanese Navy to resist salt corrosion.

9. Machine made. Serial number in the blade. No forging; stamped out and quenched in oil without differential hardening, assuming that they are hardened at all. No hada and no hamon. Some may in fact be plated, and in the worst cases the hamon may be acid etched onto the steel. The classic example is the NCO swords. On a par with Chinese fakes, and the most commonly faked sword.

I'm a novice at this myself, but I believe I see "grain" in both of these blades, so that would put them in the #4 category, if you ask me.

**dunit35** · 08-01-2017, 05:38 AM

Bruce,

Again, thanks for the help. I hope you don't decide to start charging me a fee.

The active rust on the second one on the tang. Is that something that should bug me? As it is bugging me.

The first one has some rust on the end of the scabbard as well.

I know I asked you this by email. Why are some unsigned and some signed? Is the collectibility/value difference a big margin between unsigned shin gunto and a signed (but not by a high ranking swordsmith)?

**AZPhil** · 08-01-2017, 06:18 AM

by dunit35

Bruce,

Again, thanks for the help. I hope you don't decide to start charging me a fee.

Bruce has given you some fantastic information at no charge for his shared knowledge and research. But if you noticed there are usernames that are pink. Which means they have shown their appreciation in the form of becoming a member to this forum for the awesome knowledge shared. It's also to help this site out and keep it running for your next question about an item you wish to add to your collection.

To me the info is priceless. To join $25

Semper Fi
Phil

**dunit35** · 08-01-2017, 01:43 PM

My apoglogizes Shamsy. For some reason I thought Bob commented twice about the swords and I didn't notice the first was your comment.

Thanks for the help Shamsy.

Phil, I'll have to pay up for the donation.

**Shamsy** · 08-01-2017, 10:31 PM

by dunit35

My apoglogizes Shamsy. For some reason I thought Bob commented twice about the swords and I didn't notice the first was your comment.

Thanks for the help Shamsy.

Phil, I'll have to pay up for the donation.

No worries

Yes, both look to be machine made. As you can see from the F&G list Bruce supplied, that means at least partially hand made in almost all cases, but lacking the defining characteristics of nihonto. Here is a picture of an active hamon and jihada from true nihonto for comparison.