Blood grooves on Bayonets

[Larry C]

But you have to remember too the historic element of the dagger(s) in question as their purpose was originally to be used on it's own or in conjuntion with a sword or to finish an animal off if it was brought down by an arrow/spear/shot but not killed.
I am also equally sure that the SA dagger must have come in handy on occasion, if the situation arose, even if it was not the most sturdy of sidearms.

Yes Bochman true as the SA dagger probably has quite a few times played several roles in murders and stabbings at the local beer brau... but news that was kept quiet and not published,, by the SA ans SS. That type of behavior would not be acceptable for an SA or SS mann so to say.. sorry to trail away from the blood groove topic!!

[Bochmann]

Funnily enough I was thinking of a French bayonet of WW1 vintage when I wrote my reply and I know that I had read that this type of blade was banned.
I guess I must have retained the information somewhere.

[Larry C]

WWI is notorious for the use of bayonets on opposing soldiers,, from both sides,,I guess thats where I get my thoughts of the blood groove from. The Japanese were IMO heinous in the use of bayonets of unspeakable horror.

[Walkwolf]

Indeed the Japanese were nasty in their ways with the bayonet.
I suppose their thinking was 'why waste a bullet ?'.........

[davejb]

Now this is interesting as I was always under the impression that apart from the forming of the blade, the grooves did have another purpose , and that was to help withdraw the bayonet from flesh, my dad had this proved to him during the war when they had bayonet practise with the 1907 bayonet, to demonstrate this a pigs carcass was used and apparently it was more difficult to withdraw an unfullered blade because there was a suction created inside the body, but as with all old wives tales there is always a modicom of truth surrounding the myth

[Tango]

My pennies worth I was told way back in 1987, when I was training from my Corpopal in depot...Its was like some have already said..the blood channels were there to ease of extracting the blade from flesh..failing that check behind your target & squeeze the trigger,he said that would help to get your blade back out but also make a mess of your uniform!!!!..& he went to say we don't want untidy soldiers cutting around the battlefield..lol. Cheers Terry.

[Sir Payne]

The worst bayonet to be stabbed with would be a Vintovka Mosina bayonet. It has quadruple grooves, with a point similar to that of a flathead screwdriver.

[Wagriff]

Not only was it said that a thrusting wound would grab a hold of your bayonet, but it was also said to be an excellent way of suddenly disarming yourself in combat when your stuck enemy's body fell down and pulled your rifle out of your hands. I think the truth is probably most likely a combination of both reasonings.
Not trying to derail the original topic, but having said that, another interesting question comes to mind-that being, which bayonet was the most heinous ever used? Certainly, some WWI blades were just ghastly-such as the sawback butcher blades, the French Lebel needles, the British 1907 "Sword bayonet", etc. but as Larry said, the Japanese WWII's were no slackers either. And, if one goes back abit earlier, you have the giant flat bladed versions fitting onto the Martini-Henry's(no, they weren't All triangulers! My 1879 Mark II had a blade on it that made you swallow hard!) Some rifles had bayonets that were over 2 feet long and then some. The weight on the end of your weapon must have been incredible! The US Civil War had some blades that would make your eyes blink-and in Those days, they were Definitely used...Alot. All in all, I think I'd rather be shot...

[Eric Zentner]

I guess this one would be good for mythbusters,But I would say not plausible.

Eric

[Scout]

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As has already been mentioned by others, its a fuller not a blood groove.

The excellent qoute posted by Eric really narrows it down:

That is a old wives story! William.

Eric

Found this Info...
1: You lighten it by using less material, as the act of forging in the fuller actually widens the blade, so you use less material than you would if you forged an unfullered blade. (In stock removal the blade would also be lighter, as you would be removing the material instead of leaving it there).
2: You stiffen the blade. In an unfullered blade, you only have a "single" center spine. This is especially true in terms of the flattened diamond cross section common to most unfullered double- edged blades. This cross section would be rather "whippy" on a blade that is close to three feet long. Fullering produces two "spines" on the blade, one on each side of the fuller where the edge bevels come in contact with the fuller. This stiffens the blade, and the difference between a non-fullered blade and a fullered one is quite remarkable.
Fullers on knives do the same thing, although on a smaller blade the effects are not as easily seen or felt. Actually looking at fullers from an engineering point of view they really are a sophisticated forging technique, and it was the fullered swordblade that pointed the way to modern "I" beam construction.
When combined with proper distal tapers, proper heat treating and tempering, a fullered blade will, without a doubt, be anywhere from 20% to 35% lighter than a non-fullered blade without any sacrifice of strength or blade integrity.
Fullers were not "blood grooves" or there to "break the suction" or for some other grisly purpose. They served a very important structural function. That's all. I have spent the last 27 years studying this and I can prove it beyond any doubt...
Source: rec.knives Newsgroup May 1998

All respect to those who have war stories, but contrary to common belief, there is no resistance or vacuum, when you stab living flesh.

Your knife might hit a bone going in, but that is another story altogether.

We are talking steel in flesh here.

Stabbing a living being, say a pig - which incidentally are used for spare parts and for testing ammo by the army, as they in some ways react similar to humans - is like slicing a knife through warm butter on a hot summer day.

There is almost no resistance to the knife either going in or out. That is, if the knife design is optimal. I can not emphazise this enough - there is hardly any force needed.

Even a wide knife or bayonet will not stick in flesh - it will only bleed the 'stickee' that much faster and do more damage to internal organs.

If you hit the heart, there will bodies on the floor in less than ten seconds.





The wounds made by a wide knife or bayonet are devastating - especially if you wiggle the blade in an up and downwards motion a few times prior to extracting the blade.
You do this to cause further damage and to bleed what ever you stuck your knife into that much faster. The point is to make what ever you stick go down as fast as possible.
As mentioned, if you do your bit, you will have a kill in ten seconds or less - be it pig or human, but lets 'stick' to pigs here for demonstration purposes.



Here the devastating effectiveness from a wide blade is evident. Trust me, there is NO sucking on the blade or vacuum effect. As can be seen, the blade cut the flesh in the up/down motion and worked very effectively indeed. There is a minimum of force exerted on behalf of the knife wielder.



Another pig. Just behind the foreleg is the most effective.



About the spike bayonet design:

Its not 'the worst bayonet to get stabbed with.'

I like my own Moisin spike bayonet, but only because I found it on a battlefield with my detector. It has huge nostalgic value to me, but not a fan in regards to bayonet shape.



As bayonet designs go, its actually a rather shi**y design, though it looks fearsome to most people.

Why not as effective a design?

Because the purpose of a bayonet in battle, is to put out of action or even better to kill the foe ASAP, to prevent him from killing you.

As Patton said (and I'm paraphrasing here): "You dont want to die for your country, you want to have the other guy die for his country!"

A standard bayonet blade like the Seitengewehr 84/98, commonly known as the K98 bayonet, is better for putting what ever you stick out of commision. See above for why.

As the blade is wider, you'll stand a better chance of 'de-motivating' your opponent by hitting internal organs or making a wide wound channel than with the spike bayonet type.

Yes, a spike bayonet looks nasty, but stop to think a moment. First of all the diameter: Its like getting stabbed with a pencil. Not very nice, but with a lesser circumference, there is less chance of hitting vital organs, arteries let alone opening an effective wound channel to bleed out the opponent.

The angular shape of some bayonets leave a nasty wound yes. If no vitals are hit, the one being stuck might suffer some consequences of this wound.

But in a life or death battle, you dont really want to leave the one trying to kill you with only less than stellar ballroom dancing abilities. You want him to be incapacitated.
With a spike bayonet, there is a higher risk, that he will do harm unto you before being put out of commision either by being wounded or dead.

He might not be out dancing, but he might still be alive.


A modern variation of the angular spike bayonet tip can be seen in the controversial 'Besh Wedge.'





Personally, I'm not a fan, as I have no use for that type of knife, but thats just me.

http://www.beshknives.com/besh-wedge.php